Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: HD on NBC... Sound Sync Problem? +OT Rants on all things bad with network TV

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Topic: HD on NBC... Sound Sync Problem? +OT Rants on all things bad with network TV

Rick Raskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1100
From: Manassas Virginia
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 10-08-2007 09:55 AM

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Locally, interns (no pay) on nights & weekends network stations.

What ever happened to the requirement to have a FCC licensed engineer with [first phone] on site?

[ 10-09-2007, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Rick Raskin ]

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 10-08-2007 06:25 PM

Long ago, the Commission decided they were doing the licensee's work. The rules have always laid responsibility for compliance at the feet of the licensee, so some bright soul at the Commish figured out they could save a bunch by making the licensees evaluate their engineers. Bingo... bye bye first phone! (second and third phones too, for that matter).

Code's also gone from the ham tickets, too... progress!

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Rick Raskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1100
From: Manassas Virginia
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 10-09-2007 07:17 AM

Yeah, dumb it down. Seems like we've had these discussions numerous times.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 10-09-2007 10:53 AM

Time to hand out another M.O.O.T. certificate: (Master Of Obsolete Technology.) Code, First Phone, cahangeovers, steram locomotive, tube transmitters, etc)

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-09-2007 11:06 AM

Louis,

Tube transmitters are still alive and well! Almost all the big DTV transmitters 100kw and up are using tube(klystron)finals because of the ultra high power many of them have to put out. The Varian plant out by Salt Lake International is still doing big buisness in the Klystron department! Granted the smaller 50kw and below transmitters are all solid state now There are also some really small all solid state DTV transmitters in small cities like Reno(1kw) but around this area these smaller transmitters are mainly used as translators. Some of the SLC stations are running well over 100 translators in as many as four different states in addition to what on top of Farnsworth Peak! Their maintainance costs must be staggering....

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 10-09-2007 11:29 AM

quote: Joe Redifer
A weather crawl would piss me off.

That doesn't piss me off as much as the BEEP BEEP BEEP and then they just dump the show and go to some dipshit telling us about a storm brewing 800 miles away that could turn in our direction and attack tomorrow.

quote: Joe Redifer
Why would anyone buy a DVD of a show they haven't seen?

I have done that because a show was out for a few seasons before I realized it and gave it a chance. Then I wanted to see the back episodes, so I just bought the DVD. Also some shows can't stand on their own if you watch them out of order. Since I watch about 10 hours of tv a year, I can't justify buying a DVR, nor can I seem to keep up with setting my trusty VCR to timeshift it...hence the DVD. I'm in no hurry. It's just tv.

As far as HD goes, WHAT CRAP!!! I've been watching DirectHD and various HD sources such as BlueRay and HD-DVD and so far NONE of them look decent. The compression. That evil, awful compression! [Mad]

I propose we modify theatrical presentations via a DVD that will loop itself. So once the preshow is over and the 35mm projector starts, this DVD starts playing automatically and is nothing more than a black screen with various logos and "mmmmmmmmm, how about some hot golden popcorn?" scrolling across the bottom of the screen randomly through the movie. It should be a huge hit!!! (With the corporate boneheads, not the customers.)

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James Westbrook
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1133
From: Lubbock, Texas, Usa
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 10-09-2007 11:45 AM

But Mark is in a Mountaneous region. Out here, where it's flat, translaters are for a very few stations and for areas that have trouble picking up both Amarillo and Lubbock, or Midland/Odessa and Lubbock. Hobbs New Mexico, Clovis New Mexico and Snyder Texas comes to mind.
A few years ago, the NBC affiliate was having the top of it's transmission tower replaced for Digital. After it was replaced and after it was fired up, it literally caught on fire. I never knew this was possible.
The local Fox affiliate, who also broadcasts the CW, My Lubbock TV, The Accuweather Channel (which simucasts the audio from it's local news talk station) and Telemundo has built a new taller tower for it's digital conversion, but this is close to the original tower...so close I am wondering how they are going to get the old tower down without accidently knocking down the new tower. The new tower still has not been painted, but has flashing white lights on it in the day time. I've seen and heard numerous glitches coming from these stations. If they have an engineer, he probably has his work pile up on him...
The CBS affiliate and the ABC affiliate both operate from the same studio building, but the ABC affiliate's transmitter, I understand, is still out of it's original site. Neither have had work done on their towers. (Around here when this is done, it can be easily seen and noticed.)
The PBS affiliate is all set up and currently broadcasting it's digital programming. The NBC affiliate is, too. Heard nothing from the others...
Maybe they will beg for another dead-line extension for digital switchover?
Both of my sets are analog. I'm debating just going "cold turkey" on Feb of 09...

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 10-09-2007 01:29 PM

Last night I tried watching "Chuck" on NBC in HD. What a freaking joke! NBC's HD network feed is ABSOLUTE CRAP, at least on our local Eugene affiliate. I tried both Comcast Cable and off-the-air and they're both awful. It doesn't look like HD at all. It looks like 99% of the bits have been removed. Whenever there's a fast camera pan or any action, the picture becomes completely pixelated and blocky. Even shots with relatively little motion look like crap, no detail and lots of "mosquito noise". Just to make sure it's not my TV I tried ABC-HD last night and it looked WAY better.

Now what's weird is the commercials look 200% better than the main program, and that's both network and local-sourced commercials. By commercials I mean ads by sponsors. As soon as they start running promos for NBC shows, they look like ASS again, and the main show again looks like ASS. The NBC affiliate here is doing subchannels, same as the other network affiliates, and the others manage to put out decent-looking HD.

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John Lasher
Master Film Handler

Posts: 493
From: Newark, DE
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 10-09-2007 03:40 PM

It's because the majority of so-called advances in technology aren't made with the goal of making the finished product better, but with the goal of making the end product "good enough".

Examples:
1955-Todd AO is introduced. It's not quite the same as Cinerama, but it's "good enough" that not a decade later "Cinerama" will be presented in a similar manner.

1965-Panavision, Technicolor & Kodak develop the 70mm print-up process. It's not quite as good as originating on 65mm, but it's "good enough" that, within the next decade, it is adopted as the standard for all big-budget films.

1978-The VHS/Beta format wars begin. VHS isn't quite as good as Beta, but it's good enough that in a few short years it is the preferred home video format in every home worldwide.

1994-Digital sound begins to appear in most cinemas. The picture's not quite as good as with a 70mm blowup. But the 6-channel sound makes it "good enough" that 70mm blowups will dissappear within 5 years.

ALSO IN 1994: Jurrassic Park is released, convincing everyone that CGI is finally "ready for prime-time," so to speak. 4k is too expensive and time-consuming for most studio heads, but filmmakers convince themselves that 2k is "good enough".

None of the present compression formats deliver a "perfect" product. But they're all "good enough" that most people don't notice, or at least they don't complain.

Similarly, watching 4x3 content stretched out to fit a 16x9 set used to annoy me, but I've learned to adjust my eyes, because most people find it "good enough".

I would hate it if a surgeon thought his work on me had been "good enough".

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 10-09-2007 04:20 PM

quote: David Stambaugh
As soon as they start running promos for NBC shows, they look like ASS again, and the main show again looks like ASS.

Good to see the Film-Tech'eze has rubbed off on you! [Big Grin]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 10-09-2007 05:22 PM

I believe that NBC REQUIRES there to be at least two subchannels, one of which is 24 hour SD weather and the other... well I dunno... just SD nonsense I guess to steal bandwidth. I demand the full 19.2mbps for the HD and nothing else!!!1!! Even then that's still not enough because they are using the piss-poor MPEG2 codec. Yes, MPEG2. As we all know, MPEG 2 is purely amateur in quality and was developed by people with IQs less than 42. FACT. Otherwise MPEG2 would be good. Even MPEG1 sucked ass in its own day.

Broadcasting is no longer a professional medium as there is nothing professional about it.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 10-09-2007 07:02 PM

This is what the Chief Engineer for the local NBC affiliate said today via email (I'm quoting him, hope that's ok -- It's just technical info that I'm sharing).

quote:
Basically, we have 19Mbits/sec to work with and within that 19Mbits/sec we multiplex(transmit) 2 services 16-1 & 16-2...We encode 16-1NBC HD video at 13.3Mbits/sec and 16-2 Eugene CW video at 4Mbits/sec. The remaining bandwidth is used for audio, program guide/service information, and a few null packets for protection. It's tricky to transmit NBC's 1080i HD video in 13 Mbits/sec. I've been "tweaking" the MPEG-2 encoders trying to improve the compression artifact situation. I'm trying to keep both CW SD viewers and NBC HD viewers happy. I'll continue to "tweak" and see if I can improve NBC HD. Hopefully this helps...

Yes, their sub-channel is The CW. [Roll Eyes]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-09-2007 07:37 PM

Well, he'll only have to tweek till Feburay 2009.... then he can dump that analog channel. Thats not so bad really. Kind of like all of us who will be tweeking our film systems for say another 5 or 6 years [Cool]

.

Mark

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 10-09-2007 11:26 PM

Ummmm, the analog channels don't take up any of the HDTV bandwidth. He's referring to subchannels which ruin pretty much HDTV for everybody these days.

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James Westbrook
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1133
From: Lubbock, Texas, Usa
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 10-10-2007 01:09 PM

The NBC affiliate in Lubbock has 2 subs:
NBC Weather Plus
The Tube.(Which is a music video network.)
I have not attempted to watch this in high def.
I still only have 2 analog tv's.
I don't seem to have a sense of urgency to replace them.

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