Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: HD on NBC... Sound Sync Problem? +OT Rants on all things bad with network TV

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Topic: HD on NBC... Sound Sync Problem? +OT Rants on all things bad with network TV

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-01-2008 01:31 AM

quote: Joe Redifer
Sports games are ALL 60fps without exception.

I don't think that is correct. Not unless every network broadcasts all sporting events at 720p. And that is surely not the case at all. Otherwise we would not have some of the glorious examples of interlaced artifacts posted here and elsewhere.

Isn't ABC one of the very few TV networks dedicated to broadcasting much of its content in 720p? Don't most others send out their HD feeds in 1080i instead?

For pro sports, I suppose 60fps would let us see in ripe detail all the effects of "roid rage" in our so-called professional sports these days. Yeah, I really want to see Barry Bonds rip out home run number 900 via some artificial hormones normally given to race horses. I'm not even bothering to tune into French bicycling races whether they're doped up or not. Which athlete is running his own hillbilly pit bull dog fighting ring? Sounds like a bunch of "thumbhead" inbreeding Deliverance banjo playing mutants stuff to me. Naturally, this is more a commentary on the irrelevance of professional sports to ordinary society these days. Regular people relate to it on no level anymore. There is truly very little real entertainment value left in it.

quote: Joe Redifer
Let's also not forget about news and soap operas. Talk shows like Jay Leno/David Letterman/etc are also 60fps (ie: 60 different moments in time shown each second).

Soap Operas? I have a day job. Doesn't work into my schedule.

As for talk shows and so-called news programs that seem to only vomit out shit about Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan...who really gives the first rat's ass if it is VIDEOTAPED at 60 frames per second?

The entire 720p format is really a "I couldn't give a shit about it" format to be quite honest. Not when the content is the fucking crap that it is.

MOVIES are what really drive HD. And NONE are filmed at 60fps. Not unless you can run down Douglass Trumbull and see what he might be doing on the side in Showscan. But who ever gave a shit about that format when it had its chance? No one.

Instead, we have new HDTV monitors billing new HDMI connections that support 1080p connections with 1080p 24fps frame rates. Yay! More film like! Forget fake interpolation to 60fps. Double flash and all that. Lets go lower on the FPS and make it closer to what it's like in the movie theater.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 01-01-2008 01:55 AM

On all sporting events and live broadcasts in the US you'll see 60 different moments in time per second no matter the format. I can easily tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps with my eyeballs.

As for movies, you'll never escape "double flash" as you put it because nobody would dare make a monitor that refreshes at 24Hz. Also, let's not forget about videogames. Most of them don't run lower than 30fps with probably more than 50% of them running 60fps.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-01-2008 02:14 AM

quote: Joe Redifer
On all sporting events and live broadcasts in the US you'll see 60 different moments in time per second no matter the format. I can easily tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps with my eyeballs.

Not if the network is broadcasting in 1080 resolution. There is no way any 1080p 60fps format is fitting within 6MHz of broadcast spectrum. 1080p, even at 30p, only exists in home playback formats. There isn't even any 30p progressive mode for over the air. It's all interlaced. Half a frame one hertz. The other half of the frame on the next hertz. Hell, I'm even wondering if the old 29.97 bullshit from the analog era is still holding strong in this crap.

quote: Joe Redifer
Also, let's not forget about videogames. Most of them don't run lower than 30fps with probably more than 50% of them running 60fps.

That's something that is independent of any over the air or cable broadcast format.

Double or triple flash of frame rate is also something that can be done entirely on the user end in hardware instead of wasting valuable bandwidth on the broadcast end. 720p, no matter how strongly it is sold, is really a freaking waste of bandwidth if it is really going out at 60fps. The only native 60fps content mentioned is shit I do not intend to watch.

To make matters worse, some of the newest and "best" HDTV monitors featuring the fastest 120Hz frame rates have been criticized for how electronic and fake their pictures look when engaged in those modes. I'm pretty concerned about that since the most likely large HDTV monitor I'm fixing to buy is one of those 120Hz capable TVs. It's also capable of that rather strange 1080p/24fps mode via Blu-Ray too. But I guess we'll see what happens when this latest surge of spew gets washed aside.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 01-01-2008 02:49 AM

That's probably why nobody broadcasts in 1080p. It's not an official HDTV standard to my knowledge. But still, 1080i is 60 different temporal images per second. And yes, I do believe they are running at the 29.97, etc BS. Heck, HDTV in Europe still has the oddball PAL framerates. Worldwide standards? Forget 'em.

I saw one of those Samsung 120Hz monitors the other week running one of those Pirates movies from EWWWWWWWWWWWW-Ray. It interpolated the frame rate up to 120fps and it looked more like "behind the scenes" camcorder footage of the making of the movie, but it was the actual movie itself. Worse yet when the action got fast, it began to drop frames because it couldn't interpolate that kind of information fast enough. 120hz is fine with me, but interpolating frames is a definite no-no in all cases. Also, who wants their image delayed even more?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-01-2008 03:34 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
Isn't ABC one of the very few TV networks dedicated to broadcasting much of its content in 720p?

Actually Fox has also switched over to 720P because of all its sports broadcasting work. Imagine buying all that 1080 gear only to have to replace it..... [Roll Eyes]

Mark

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 01-01-2008 06:32 PM

Fox has been 720p for as long as I've had HDTV (at least a few years).

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-01-2008 11:48 PM

The 60fps thing for sports sounds really cool -even if it's just at 720p resolution. But it makes me think of an additional problem: the current state of flux in HDMI video connections. Even the newest HD monitors are kind of hit and miss with what HD fps modes they support.

Absolute full support should be any level of resolution at 24fps, 30fps and 60fps. But next to no HDTV monitors in existence support all of those modes. I'm not really sure which HD monitors truly support 60fps from various digital cable and digital satellite boxes -or if they even support such a fps mode over the air.

Maybe we'll get more attention to this kind of thing during WinterCES in Las Vegas next week. I hear there's some new "PD" format to compete with HDMI on digital connections. Just what we need. More connection standards to confuse the issue even further.

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Rick Raskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1100
From: Manassas Virginia
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 08-25-2008 06:39 AM

quote: John Lasher
Similarly, watching 4x3 content stretched out to fit a 16x9 set used to annoy me, but I've learned to adjust my eyes, because most people find it "good enough".

HD Done wrong. This bugs the hell out of me and I revert to the SD broadcast. I recently sent an email to the History Channel (via A&E Networks) because they seem to be the worst offenders. No reply. No suprise either.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 08-25-2008 06:58 AM

In fairness, email is not terribly effective. Send it paper mail or make some phone calls...if your email was even read, it's unlikely to've been distinguished out of the noise by any responsible person...

--jhawk

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Rick Raskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1100
From: Manassas Virginia
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 08-25-2008 02:29 PM

You're right John -- A letter is in the mail.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 08-26-2008 08:41 PM

NBC Nightly News continues to have audio problems: loss, sync, and voice over bumper music levels. Too much trouble...now watch ABC. Louis

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