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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Topic: So Long, Yankee Stadium. It's Been Wonderful.
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 09-25-2008 01:15 PM
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Chad,
I have to disagree. Golf is the sport that requires the most skill! Not only are you the lineback but you are also your own defense. It takes gobs of skill and determination to be good at it... and no, luck is not a factor in golf.
In no way am I questioning the skill involved in golf (or bowling for that matter). Luck does have a role; I'm sure we've all shanked one off a tree only to get a perfect kick-out onto the green or fareway. I have played golf a lot and enjoy it. I just don't consider it a sport. Steve put it well...
quote: Steve Guttag
No matter how you cut it, bowling, like golf (also can get quite winded), are not sports in the sense that your opponent can not affect your outcome
I mean directly affecting or limiting your opponents options on his or her play. You can't do that in golf. I'm not talking about the mental pressure you can place on someone, forcing them to take a more aggressive shot because you're ahead 2 strokes. And yes, I do consider pool/billiards a sport based on this definition.
quote: Bobby Henderson
A great fastball pitch in baseball isn't as fast as the serves in a lot of professional tennis matches. Let's not leave out Jai alai -often called "the fastest game on earth." The ball in that game can travel at speeds close to 200mph.
I feel silly having to point this out, but in tennis you're standing much farther away from that 120 mph serve and the surface area of your racket is much, much larger than a baseball bat. In Jai alai (made famous during the intro to Miami Vice), again, you're much farther away and the scoops are also bigger. Of course in those sports you have to move more.
Look, this has been researched and hitting a baseball is indeed the hardest thing to do in sports. I remember driving a racecar was #2. I'd have to look it up again to find #3, as it was a few years ago I read the article in a Men's Health or SI or something.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 09-25-2008 06:57 PM
quote: Chad Souder
I feel silly having to point this out, but in tennis you're standing much farther away from that 120 mph serve and the surface area of your racket is much, much larger than a baseball bat.
The difference in distance is not as "much farther away" as you think.
The distance from the center of a pitcher's mound to home plate on a major league field is 60' 6". The distance from baseline to baseline on a tennis court is 78'. That's an 18' difference.
A 90mph pitch (132' per second) will pass over home plate after leaving the pitcher's hand in .45833 seconds.
A 120mph tennis serve (176' per second) will cross the court in .4431818 seconds.
As you can see, the difference on reaction time required to hit the ball or return the serve is nearly identical. And sure, the baseball bat has a much smaller hitting surface than a tennis racquet. However, a tennis player's return volley must get over the net and bounce in a specific quadrant of the tennis court, a target 21' deep and 13' 6" wide. That's not easy to do with those really bouncy tennis balls.
I did pretty well playing baseball all through my childhood years and on up into high school (and I wasn't getting clobbered like I did when playing football). I tried numerous times to play tennis and just couldn't get any good at it. Every other person's experience may be a bit different. The game was just frustrating as hell, kind of like golf. And you ran your ass off too.
I'll give you the Jai Alai point. Those courts (called a "cancha") are big - 176' in length, 50' in width and 40' in height. However, a ball traveling upwards of 200mph is covering 293 feet per second. That's a bit scary.
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 09-25-2008 10:04 PM
OK, I don't really want to beat a dead horse, but...
Baseballs are NOT delivered from 60' 6". That is where the pitcher's rear foot sits. By the time he strides, the release point is approximately 55' from the plate. Rather than get into all the math, I'll just say the proof is in the puddin'. Baseball has the lowest standard of excellence of any "major" sport. A 40% (I'm going with OBP, which is a whole different argument) success rate wouldn't fly anywhere else. Can you imagine a pro only hitting 40% of the fare ways, getting 40% of the serves in, or completing 40% of the passes?
Another point: A tennis racquet goes about 12 oz and actually has 3 sweet spots. A baseball bat has only the one sweet spot and has more of a range in weight, but I haven't heard of any major leaguer using one much lighter than 30 oz. Andre Dawson used a log - something like 42 oz. To move that much weight that quickly and hit such a small target AFTER determining whether or not the ball is hittable takes an unbelievable amount of strength and speed. It cannot be trained or taught. It can be honed, but like Steve said, some guys have it, most don't. That's why even the best swing and miss so much. It's really, really hard. Now try and do that 4 or 5 times a day, sometimes 20 days in a row, with flights and bus rides in between, for 6 months.
This is where steroids come in. They don't make you stronger or faster by themselves. What they do is dramatically shorten the recovery time of your muscles. That's why someone like Clemens used. He never threw the ball any faster because of them, he just recovered quickly and had a longer career because of it. Same goes for a lot of guys who didn't hit for power and didn't get the media attention. Steroids don't help you hit a ball farther, but they help you hit the ball as far day after day instead of getting fatigued. I am not condoning steroid use, but they are commonly misconceived. They may not be as desirable in the NFL or NBA because those sports have so much more recovery time between games.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 09-26-2008 09:45 AM
It is even more dramatic than Chad put it...in baseball...a GREAT batter hits only 3 out of every 10 at bats. A crappy batter only his it twice out of every 10 at bats. That is all the difference it is between crappy and great. Imagine a tennis player only hitting 2 or 3 serves for every 10. There is no question...a well executed Ace shot is impossible to hit so I'm not taking away anything from tennis but when you look at the crux of the game...a batter has a harder time to be good.
As for physical build...yes baseball is not as demanding...there are positions where the build can help/hurt....ever seen a really tall catcher? If you have, they probably get stolen against a bit...it takes time to rise and get that ball to 2nd. height tends to help infielders stop balls that would otherwise go over their heads or sneak by an outstreatched arm.
In basketball (my sport in grade school)...height definately has its advantages...particularly how the game is played now (with dunking allowed....once upon a time...that was goal-tending...as it should be). Speed and the ability to jump high can offset some height. Shot accuracy too can help offset some height. My shot was my strongest suit...90% from the foul line and a high percentage from most anywhere inside of half-court. However...as I transitioned from JrHigh to HS...I transitioned from Forward to Guard and transitioned out entirey when I started showing movies...no height or speed requirements.
As for Golf (or bowling)...those are certainly skill games...but no matter how you cut it, not competitive sports. Golf is certainly harder than bowling. About all bowling has that affects you are the lane conditions. The rest is in the bowler's control (ball, lane shape/size...etc). Golf has not only the course conditions...which vary from hole to hole and even day-to-day...they have atmospheric conditions (both past and present) that affect the whole game. I've watched several 300-games played in bowling...I've never seen a perfect 18 in golf ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I guess it all comes down to what you consider a sport to be. I think bowling and golf are sports in the sense that they require some amount of physical stamina and they both require a degree of evolved skill to be more proficient. They are NOT competitive sports, where I, if no one else, define as a sport that your opponent can directly affect your outcome.
One thing is for sure...pro bowlers, pro golfers, pro tennis players, pro football, pro baseball.....etc...ALL make more than us theatre folks!
Steve
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 09-26-2008 11:36 AM
quote: Bobby Henderson
You're not going to get into the math because the math would not show a gigantic difference to support your argument that it's a lot harder to hit a baseball pitch than anything else in sports.
No, I'm not going to get into the match because I can't do the math, but way to use those undefined, comparitive terms again (gigantic, lot harder). There are too many things I don't know. Your figures earlier were way off. I already pointed out you were miscalculated the distance from the release point to home, but there are others.
I was probably too generous using 55' from the release point, considering the rear foot is well off the rubber when the ball is released. Its probably closer to an average of 52' or 53'. Then there are many other things you missed. I don't know how far over the baseline a players racquet strikes the tennis ball. 3' maybe? I know both his feet must remain behind the line. I also don't know how far behind the other baseline the receiving player waits. 5' perhaps? Those are just guesses.
I could go to the extreme and calculate that if 6' 10" Randy Johnson with his orangutan arms releases a 100 mph fastball (146.67 fps) from 51' away and the center of the batter's body is 2' behind the plate at the rear of the batter's box, for a total of 53', the ball would be there in .361 seconds. I could then do the same for tennis, but they also would be guesses and I won't do math based on guesses. Maybe you know some exact figures to answer some of those questions. Then, if you get all that, figure out how quickly a 2 oz, 2.5" ball with fuzzies all over it slows down traveling that distance compared to a smoother, 3" ball that weighs 5.25 oz travelling it's distance. Then, figure out how much more that tennis ball slows once it hits the ground (varying playing surfaces differ of course), obviously something a baseball doesn't do. I can't do that math because I don't know those answers. Then, add to all that the fact that Randy Johnson can mix in his 88 mph slider on any given pitch, completely disrupting timing, whereas in tennis everybody watching knows what's coming after the first serve misses.
I should clarify that I think boxing is the hardest sport to be great at, overall. Its combination of endurance, power, agility, etc. is unmatched. The hardest individual activity to do in any sport, however, is hit that baseball.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 09-26-2008 10:40 PM
quote: Chad Souder
No, I'm not going to get into the match because I can't do the math, but way to use those undefined, comparitive terms again (gigantic, lot harder). There are too many things I don't know. Your figures earlier were way off.
So you say you can't do the math, but my figures are "way off." Great contradiction there to go along with all the apples to oranges comparisons. Baseball is a lot harder and all other sports are comparatively much easier. I'd need a paint brush tip the size of a door to paint strokes that broad.
I love baseball. It's a great sport. The folks who hate baseball can feel free to stay the hell away from baseball games, baseball game broadcasts and even steer clear of conversations between fans of baseball for that matter. But I'm not going to belittle all other organized sports based on a subjective judgment and formulated opinion regarding the difficulty of hitting a major league pitch.
You're characterizing hitting a big league pitch as if it is nearly impossible. If the difficulty level was that extreme batters would need double the number of strikes before being K'ed at the plate.
I brought this up before. I've seen countless numbers of professional baseball games and even quite a few minor league games where the batter deliberately fouls away pitches battling with the guy on the mound for the pitch he really wants. There is a lot of tactics in that. If the batter can make the pitcher throw 10 times or more just to get one strikeout the batter still scored a partial victory by using up a lot of that pitcher's energy. One other thing. Batters routinely pull hits to one field or another as part of a greater plan to advance runners already on base. That kind of thing would be impossible to do if the task of hitting a pitch is just so terribly daunting as you're characterizing it. I suppose the batter should just be overjoyed by making contact with the ball.
quote: Chad Souder
I should clarify that I think boxing is the hardest sport to be great at, overall. Its combination of endurance, power, agility, etc. is unmatched. The hardest individual activity to do in any sport, however, is hit that baseball.
I believe the act of striking out a big league hitter is more difficult. Even throwing a big-league quality pitch is really difficult. I can't throw a baseball 90mph or faster. There are few who can. Throwing a no-hitter is extremely difficult. Hole in one shots in professional golf are far more common than no-hitters in baseball. And throwing a perfect game is, by a very wide margin, the absolutely most difficult thing to do in baseball. Nothing else in baseball comes close to comparing to that. I might go so far to say that the feat of a perfect game is the most difficult thing to do out of all organized professional sports.
There's a lot more people with big league hitting talent than big league pitching talent. The talent pool of great pitchers is quite small. Randy Johnson is definitely one of the truly great pitchers of recent years. He also happens to be one of only 17 men who have pitched a perfect game in Major League Baseball. No pitcher has ever thrown more than one. I've been a big Nolan Ryan fan since I was a little kid and despite all the no-hitters he's thrown, he never threw a perfect game.
Different topic/sport.
Regarding boxing, I have mixed feelings about that sport. I think the governing bodies in boxing are totally corrupt. It's no wonder they're all based outside of the United States and U.S. legal jurisdiction. They and the boxing promoters cherry pick matches rather than going through any real process of having ranked contenders move up in order and challenge the champ. Boxing is largely bullshit anymore. And everyone knows it. This is a leading reason why Mixed Martial Arts has taken off big time in popularity.
MMA isn't perfect either. I think the UFC does a lot of its own cherry picking. But it doesn't let a media darling champion like Chuck Liddell go on for years getting only easy, arranged matches. Liddell has been beaten in his last 3 matches. As brutal as MMA seems, I believe it is actually a more humane sport. The matches don't go on for 10 or 15 rounds, allowing the fighter's brain to get pummeled into pudding. The fights can get bloody (but so can boxing), but they tend to get decided much faster.
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