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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Author
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Topic: NY Giants' Plaxico Burress is an Idiot
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 12-03-2008 01:32 PM
quote: Mark J. Marshall
I saw a headline on a paper in here in Philly that said that "Plaxicon" (his new Transformer name, in tribute to Mike Schindler) is pleading "Not Guilty" to the gun charge. Isn't the charge that he was carrying a gun in a place where he shouldn't have been
An initial plea of not guilty is common for almost every kind of charge. They plea not guilty to buy time, then eventually work out a plea bargain with the prosecution, then change their plea to guilty. Uless of course it actually goes to trial, which is rare.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Unfortunately, just about any state granting conceal carry permits explicitly PROHIBITS anyone carrying a firearm into a bar, nightclub or any other business whose main income is through selling alcohol based drinks unless that person owns and operates that establishment and has not been drinking.
Not true. Most states, like Iowa, only prohibit carrying on federal property like Post offices or within a certain distance of schools. The rest comes on a county to county basis. My sheriff "strongly encourages" us to never carry in a bar or in church, but there is nothing on paper restricting it. Consuming alcohol, of course, immediately voids your permit and makes carrying illegal.
quote: Bobby Henderson
What pisses me off really badly about this is Burress may end up walking with a slap on the wrist because he is an NFL star.
He more likely will be getting his wrist cut off. The drawback of being a celebrity is occasionally you are made an example of. I find it hard to believe any normal Joe would have received the same punishment for dog fighting Michael Vick did - he got that because of his fame. The same will happen to Burress. He will become an example. As predicted, he has already lost his job and pay for the season. He also is likely to lose a large portion, if not all, of his signing bonus. He also may have taken another teammate down with him. He was thought of as a cancer before, now his value will be very, very low and it is looking like jail time will also come into play. Again, I doubt a normal Joe would be treated as harshley.
He deserves whatever punishment he gets and I hope he does become an example to other of what not to do. Thinking your expired Florida permit is valid in New York - please. What a waste of tremendous physical talent.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-03-2008 02:49 PM
quote: Chad Souter
Not true. Most states, like Iowa, only prohibit carrying on federal property like Post offices or within a certain distance of schools. The rest comes on a county to county basis. My sheriff "strongly encourages" us to never carry in a bar or in church, but there is nothing on paper restricting it.
Unless you have the laws in writing you're fooling yourself and taking a very serious gamble if you conceal carry a gun into a bar in Iowa. If Iowa actually allows someone to carry a gun into a bar, even under the context of not drinking, then that's one really stupid part of Iowa's gun laws. I am not believing that claim "most states" also allow it unless that claim is backed up with some actual proof.
Oklahoma is a more gun friendly state than Iowa. It is a "shall issue" state regarding conceal carry permits. Iowa is not. Yet Oklahoma not only specifically has it in writing that you cannot conceal carry into a bar even with a permit, but you'll also be convicted of a felony if you are caught doing so. And that rule isn't buried in the list of other places where you can't carry. The rule has its own section in the OK SDA law book.
Every state that grants conceal carry permits has specific lists of places that are off limits for conceal carried weapons. It's more than just government buildings and schools. And it's the duty of any conceal carry permit holder to know those rules. Not knowing any better won't stand up as a defense in court.
quote: Chad Souder
He more likely will be getting his wrist cut off. The drawback of being a celebrity is occasionally you are made an example of.
Occasionally. Not usually.
More often, the celebrity athlete gets a slap on the wrist. I could go on about various members of the Dallas Cowboys having serious run-ins with the law and little to nothing coming from it. A "nobody" gets caught in a hotel room with a good amount of cocaine and hookers is going to have a much harder time avoiding prison.
Todd Bertuzzi assaults Steve Moore during an NHL game, breaking Moore's neck by pile driving his head into the ice. The only example I saw there is Bertuzzi took a one year vacation and didn't get so much as arrested.
Dog fighting rings do get busted. It's very rare that a celebrity like Michael Vick is involved. Very serious charges do get handed handed out over that. Unfortunately the sadistic animal cruelty ends up being the least of those dog fighting ring masters worries. Racketeering charges get handed out. Often illegal drugs and illegal guns are found at the scene.
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 12-04-2008 03:45 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
Unless you have the laws in writing you're fooling yourself and taking a very serious gamble if you conceal carry a gun into a bar in Iowa. If Iowa actually allows someone to carry a gun into a bar, even under the context of not drinking, then that's one really stupid part of Iowa's gun laws. I am not believing that claim "most states" also allow it unless that claim is backed up with some actual proof.
Bobby, how am I supposed to provide proof of a law that doesn’t exist? See, the way it works is, laws provide restrictions, not freedoms. You start with a right or freedom or privilege until a law takes it away, not the other way around. I guess my actual proof would be citing blank spots of paper where there are no laws. Therefore, it is not a stupid part of Iowa’s gun laws. It would be a stupid absence from their laws if anything, but that’s another debate. I won't get into what I think of Oklahoma's law stating you can't carry into a bar, but the Applebee's across the street that has dollar draws on Wednesdays is fine. I don't want to cross the politics line. I will say the only place Iowa restricts carrying concealed is schools and public parks. I forgot about parks before because so many of them around me are exempt do to their shooting ranges or hunting areas. The federal building must be a federal restriction - that makes more sense anyway.
Maybe most states don't have such limited restrictions. I'm only really concerned about the law of the state I live in or ones I travel to. Perhaps I should have said some instead of most. I'm not an expert on carry laws in all 50 states, I just figured common sense would prevail in most states. Then again, with gun laws common sense often goes out the window.
One stupid thing in Iowa is that although a permit issued in any county is good state wide, some counties rarely issue non-professional permits. So I could carry in any county even though residents of that county can’t carry themselves. Real dumb.
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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 12-04-2008 07:39 PM
*sigh* Although I should just say look it up yourself...
"724.4A Weapons free zones—enhanced penalties.
1. As used in this section, "weapons free zone" means the area in or on, or within one thousand feet of, the real property comprising a public or private elementary or secondary school, or in or on the real property comprising a public park. A weapons free zone shall not include that portion of a public park designated as a hunting area under section 461A.42."
There ya go. My point on bars vs. restaurants that serve alcohol is a simple one. I saw a man as drunk as anyone I've ever seen 3 weeks ago during Monday night football at a sports bar that mostly serves food. If consuming alcohol voids the permit anyway and the whole idea is to have your weapon concealed, then what does it matter the percentage of business done via alcohol? If others noticing your weapon are the concern, than you're not doing a very good job concealing. If you're drinking, your permit is invalid anyway and you need to leave it at home. If higher-risk individuals being around you will make you draw unnecessarily, you don't deserve the permit. Real simple stuff.
Now, I'm finished with this. It's getting boring and I fear I have already violated the no politics rule, so I'm going to leave it alone. Since Oklahoma honors my permit, should I ever visit, I'll ask the manager of any sports bar I enter to see his books before I go in to ensure no more than 49% of their gross is from alcohol.
Back to the original topic, Burress had a Glock .40. I have never liked Glock's lack of a traditional safety, which it appears was one factor in him shooting himself. It takes absolutely no extra time during your draw for a practiced shooter to turn off a thumb safety. It becomes second nature. Glock only uses the trigger safety, which I have never liked. It allows someone who picks up the gun, should it fall loose during a struggle or some other way, to just point and shoot. Having a traditional safety of some type could confuse them and buy you those extra couple seconds that make all the difference. I think the 1911 is best - a triple safety. Let me be clear I am in no way blaming Burress's shooting on his gun - that was his own dumb fault - I just wasn't surprised when I heard it was a Glock.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-04-2008 09:08 PM
quote: Chad Souder
*sigh* Although I should just say look it up yourself...
I tried to do so. Couldn't find anything at the state of Iowa website on it. That's why I asked for a link.
One snippet of statutes doesn't prove anything. That's also why I asked for a link to the full statutes so I could see if there was anything you missed. Considering other things not mentioned in that "list" of weapons free zones (like local, state or federal government operated buildings or meetings of local, state or federal government officials held elsewhere) that list for Iowa seems strangely incomplete.
If you're hell bent on doing it, go ahead and conceal carry into the County Clerk's office, a city council meeting or the local "watering hole." At least here in Oklahoma the laws are very clear about what is off limits.
quote: Chad Souder
Back to the original topic, Burress had a Glock .40. I have never liked Glock's lack of a traditional safety, which it appears was one factor in him shooting himself.
I have the opinion that thumb safeties on semi-auto handguns are about as useful as a butt hole on an elbow. The trigger finger is the primary safety. Cardinal rule #3: never place your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire. Rule #3 was even more important since Burress was silly enough to have a round in the chamber.
I'm not a fan of Glock pistols either. I don't like the grip angle on them. The plastic magazines aren't as durable as the metal magazines used by nearly all other gun manufacturers.
The only "tupperware" gun I have at the moment is a Springfield XD-40 subcompact. It looks kind of like a Glock, yet has a few features not found on Glock handguns -like a grip safety and more durable magazines. The XD line has a loaded chamber indicator. They have a more logical method for field stripping -not too much different from my Sig Sauer P226, except the take down lever flips up instead of down. Unfortunately, the XD also requires the user to pull the trigger to release the slide (just like what a Glock requires). You don't have to do any of that trigger pulling nonsense when field stripping a Sig.
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Anslem Rayburn
Master Film Handler
Posts: 476
From: Yuma, AZ, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 12-05-2008 02:38 AM
Here's a link to the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, which lists each state and the areas the law doesn't allow you to carry.
Link
It lists Iowa as having no restricted places. Other states that don't list bars (or businesses selling alcohol) on the list include Alabama, Alaska, California, Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, West Virginia, and Wyoming.
The list also states that Vermont allows residents and non-residents to carry open or concealed without a permit.
That's 27 states that don't prohibit carrying in a bar, according to the site.
Oddly, city/state/local government buildings are not listed for many states.
Of course, this doesn't mean that many cities and/or counties don't have stricter local guidelines. It also is completely possible that the site is wrong (or out of date), but it seems likely that they have done the homework.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 12-05-2008 10:40 AM
quote: Anslem Rayburn
It also is completely possible that the site is wrong (or out of date), but it seems likely that they have done the homework.
Thanks for posting the link to that site anyway.
It does appear some of the information is incorrect/out of date regarding Oklahoma. OK has reciprocal agreements with over 20 states. Conceal carry permits in OK cost $100 for a 5 year term, not 4 years. Also, OK residents now have the option to pay $200 for a 10 year permit. That cost doesn't include the $60 you pay for the safety class, $25 finger printing fee with the county sheriff and OSBI and the few bucks for a couple of passport style photos for your ID.
The site is also incorrect regarding New Mexico. NM currently does allow conceal carry; Oklahoma even has a reciprocal agreement with NM on honoring out of state permits.
Some of the criteria used by that site for grading states is odd. The site's author(s) assume anyone wanting to get a conceal carry permit is already confident in handling handguns -which is just plain wrong. So they'll deduct points for states who require a safety class -like Oklahoma. 18 people were in the safety class I attended and a few were newbies to handling guns; most of the newbies had to rent guns from the instructor.
That same page also lowers the grade for states who list various places off limits for conceal carry. They base that on the restriction being a personal judgment against the permit holder rather than it being a judgment on the settings of the place being deemed off limits.
quote: Frank Angel
You guys seem to know allot about gun laws so I ask -- it seems that any mention of gun permits is always coupled with reference to carrying a concealed weapon. Does this mean that one doesn't need a permit to carry a gun that is in plane sight....like cops carry or like they did in the West, in holsters out in the open and not concealed?
It's a little more complicated than that.
Having a conceal carry permit gives you additional freedoms in other areas like transporting loaded firearms in your vehicle. You can openly transport rifles and shot guns in vehicles without a permit, but those guns have to be unloaded. Oklahoma allows people to transport handguns in vehicles without a permit, but the handgun must be unloaded with ammo stored separately. The handgun must be in plain view or stored in a gun case that is in plain view (like on the passenger seat of the vehicle -not hidden under it). A carry permit avoids all that trouble. But you must, by law, inform any law enforcement officer that pulls you over that you have a gun and a permit. If you don't have your weapon in the car at that time you don't have to say anything.
Open carry of handguns by civilians is not allowed in Oklahoma -unless you're hunting game in a hunting area or target shooting in a sports shooting area. You can't just walk through Wal-mart with a gun on your hip.
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