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Topic: Michael Jackson has passed away

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-09-2009 11:15 AM

Has everybody forgotten the old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"???

Seriously people, it's just a word. It didn't hit you over the head or anything real.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-09-2009 11:52 AM

quote: Chad Souder
You could say the same about Colonel Tom Parker, Sid Bernstein, Don King, etc., etc., etc...

No way. Listen to the Quincy Jones album "The Dude" and you'll hear a lot of the same elements that made up the MJ sound of the early '80s. Michael was a great singer and writer, but the addition of the Jones' great producing and arranging made an unbeatable combination.

quote: Chris Slycord
I have listened to the song and read the lyrics and I still conclude that the term isn't needed. I'm not saying he meant it to be antisemetic, but even used the way he did the term is offensive to a lot of people.

"There are no bad words. Bad thoughts, bad intentions...and words. Then we assign a word to a thought, and we're stuck with that word for that thought." -- George Carlin

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-09-2009 12:46 PM

Aww, that's leaving out the "good part":

"You know the seven, don't you, that you can't say on television: shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits, huh? Those are the heavy seven. Those are the ones that'll infect your soul, curve your spine and keep the country from winning the war."

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-09-2009 12:49 PM

Bad words are often put into songs simply to be inflammatory.

Back in 1968 Steppenwolf wrote "God damn the pusher!"
Could it have been written any other way? Probably.
But, why did it get left in there? To be inflammatory. To attract attention.
If it wasn't, it probably never would have been included in the movie, "Easy Rider."
If it wasn't for that, the song probably never would have been famous.

Basically, people sometimes do things to attract attention.

Janet Jackson flashed her tit on the Super Bowl.
Nobody in the world will deny it was done to attract attention.

Why should her brother be any different?

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-09-2009 06:46 PM

Yeah, he flashed his tits in the "Black or White" video, I think it was.

Bobby - I had already put that quote in the "posts last wins" thread and didn't want to repeat myself!

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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 07-09-2009 06:52 PM

quote: Chris Slycord
I have listened to the song and read the lyrics and I still conclude that the term isn't needed.

I think unless you are the author, that is not your call to make. Jackson thought it was needed for some reason. He hardly needed to seek attention by using harsh words. I would say he was already pretty well established by the time that song was written. The only people who find it offensive are those who choose to allow themselves to be offended.

quote: Mike Blakesley
No way. Listen to the Quincy Jones album "The Dude" and you'll hear a lot of the same elements that made up the MJ sound of the early '80s. Michael was a great singer and writer, but the addition of the Jones' great producing and arranging made an unbeatable combination.

I am absolutely not denying Jones's influence, I am simply making the point that behind almost every huge performer there was someone behind them making a huge contribution. Bernie Taupin, Babyface, Rick Rubin, Dr. Dre... I could go on and on. If not for Sam Phillips, Elvis may have never been known by Colonel Tom Parker, much less by the country. If not for George Martin, The Beatles never have made it into the USA with the help of Sid Bernstein. In my opinion, they deserve as much or more credit than Jones earned with Jackson. Jackson had already gained fame prior to ever meeting Jones.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-09-2009 09:28 PM

quote: Chad Souder
I think unless you are the author, that is not your call to make.

So if I see a scene in a movie I think should've been cut out, am I not allowed to voice that opinion because I'm not the movie maker? Also, how am I making a call at all? I'm just voicing my opinion that the line wasn't needed; doesn't mean it was my decision to make.

quote: Chad Souder
Jackson thought it was needed for some reason.

Should I care? Again, I think it wasn't needed. Telling me Jackson disagreed with me isn't exactly compelling.

quote: Chad Souder
The only people who find it offensive are those who choose to allow themselves to be offended.

Of course, someone who has no idea what those people went through would say something like this.

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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 07-10-2009 10:08 AM

Perhaps someone who likes songs with the lyrical shallowness of Chickenfoot is incapable of understanding a song with a little bit of depth [Razz]

Tell us, what words should Jackson have used instead to deliver the same point?

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-10-2009 10:34 AM

The personal insult is worth a 1 point deduction and 1 point addition in Chris' favor.

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 07-10-2009 11:03 AM

The fact that the song in question wasn't a hit and that most folks have never even heard of it may indicate whether Jackson's lyrics were "worth the risk" of being written for shock value. Of course, at that point in his life, his songs weren't nearly as shocking as everything else about him. And every video he made seemed to portray him as a bitter and angry person.

I hate it when celebrities complain about fame, especially when their earlier behavior has been calculated just to draw attention to themselves. It seems to me that it would be very easy to remove yourself from the spotlight and, like, move to a place where shallow photographers don't want to hang out. I mean, how many celebrities seem to get all the privacy they want in a beautiful place like Montana? I've never seen tabloid pictures with Montana in the background.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-10-2009 11:31 AM

quote: Chad Souder
Perhaps someone who likes songs with the lyrical shallowness of Chickenfoot is incapable of understanding a song with a little bit of depth

Who said I didn't understand the song and even disliked the song? Just because I dislike the choice of a couple words doesn't mean I hate the whole thing.

quote: Chad Souder
Tell us, what words should Jackson have used instead to deliver the same point?

When did you mistake me for a songwriter?

quote: Greg Anderson
I hate it when celebrities complain about fame, especially when their earlier behavior has been calculated just to draw attention to themselves.

In defense of MJ, early in his career he seemed to simply have what was a running, inside joke where he would make up his own rumors and send them to the press. Only later did he realize (after he got beyond his young naivety) that doing so was not beneficial to him at all.

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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 07-10-2009 05:25 PM

I guess I didn't realize when you first said the words were useless, then said three times they weren't needed, but only just now said for the first time that you didn't like them, that you really meant all along you just didn't like his choice to use them. My mistake. I have no issue if you only meant you didn't like them.

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 07-10-2009 07:46 PM

I meant useless as in unnecessary. He could've easily made the point he was trying to make without resorting to using the terms he used and it probably would make the lyrics have a little bit more of the "depth" that you like, since it would lack the blatant "shock value" attempt. Avoiding the shock value would require him to be more thoughtful with his choice of words.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-10-2009 11:03 PM

I guess M. J. was ahead of his time with those lyrics. Today's R&B lyrics are full of "unnecessary" language. Take away the four letter words and many of today's pop "songwriters" would have nothing to say.

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Chad Souder
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 962
From: Waterloo, IA, USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 07-11-2009 10:20 AM

I completely agree with you, Mike. Often, perhaps usually, "bad" words are used to increase attention and it's not just R&B, but pop songs of many genres, like you said. I remember an MTV awards show during which Steven Tyler of Aerosmith, while receiving an award, thanked someone for teaching them (and I'm paraphrasing here because this was probably 15 or 20 years ago - I think something for the Pump album) "if you put a few four letter words on your album it will sell a lot more copies." I just know that they're not always used for shock value. For example, in Bob Dylan's song Hurricane, he has a line "and to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger..." No shock attempt there, that's just what Dylan thought was necessary to tell that story. Usually in music that word could be replaced by the word "brother" for example, with no diminished meaning, but not in the case of Hurricane. It was necessary. I think the same is the case for some other songs out there.

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