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Author
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Topic: Movie-Theater Chains Take On IMAX
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-11-2014 11:14 AM
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I have very little respect for Bobby's opinion.
Then why do you waste so much of your time trying to argue with me?
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
Where I have serious concerns is in the marketing department. I think it sucks, the trailers are not very good. Dolby is a little late to the game.
Dolby is way the hell ahead of anyone else with regards to object based sound. IMAX is the one who missed the game entirely. Meanwhile Barco, DTS and a few others are trying to come up with an open standards object based sound format. I think Barco is just using that as an opportunity to have theaters delay installing Atmos and consider Auro instead. It's going to take at least a year's worth of software development and then another year of getting infrastructure in place before any of it could roll out to theaters. Atmos is going to be in a lot more theaters and used on a lot more soundtracks by then.
There's nothing wrong with Dolby's marketing of Atmos inside the movie theater. The trailers for Atmos are very effective. Visitors would have a hard time not noticing the extra rows of speakers on the ceiling.
It's outside of the theater where Dolby has to do better. They need better visibility on movie posters, TV commercials and that sort of thing. Some theater chains do a good job hyping Atmos on their web sites and in theaters while others stink at it.
Dolby's web site, as it pertains to Atmos, could be organized a little better. To their credit, it's pretty easy to find Atmos equipped theaters on their installations map. I can't find anything like that for the competing Auro 3D 11.1 format, much less any sort of simple list of installations. Theater chains installing Auro aren't even bothering to list which ones have it.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
The real problem I have with the current Dolby ads is that it is playing to the same 90's type crowd and it gets added in after all of the other advertising of what the particular theatre has to offer.
The best place to put a Dolby Atmos trailer is directly before the start of the movie. Trailers for THX and 35mm digital sound formats were handled the same way. If the trailers are put directly before the feature they're seen in their best possible light. The house lights are down completely and just about everyone has gotten seated. If they played the Atmos trailer at the start of the trailer pack half the audience would miss it because of visiting the snack counter or bathrooms.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
The Dolby 7.1 flop kind of shows that the general audience does not care.
I criticize Dolby for trying to take branding ownership of a sound format that really doesn't belong to them. It's 7.1 channel Linear PCM.
As for 7.1 itself, it's no flop. It's a very common standard. The Blu-ray format deserves some credit for pushing 7.1 since the Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio and LPCM 7.1 formats all were being used on Blu-ray before Dolby started pushing 7.1 Surround in theaters. Commercial movie theaters can wire their sound systems for 7.1 with or without Dolby branded gear. And they're doing so either way by the thousands of screens.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I am calling it a flop. It might be around but the average customer does not care.
You're only calling 7.1 a flop because your beloved IMAX digital theaters can't support it. They top out at 5.0 or 5.1.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
IMAX suuround sound layout and lack of masking has been like that since the 70's, did you not know that?
Back when IMAX was really IMAX they only showed movies that filled the entire screen.
Their move into the multiplex and DMR use on Hollywood studio films changed that. Suddenly they were showing letterboxed movies with no masking on screens meant for 15/70 use. Then they kept the same, screwed up thing in place with the launch of IMAX Digital, rather than doing the correct thing: using curtains and masking on those modest sized screens.
I already had a hatred of common width screens. IMAX sent exhibitors the message that it was not only OK to use common width screens, but they could also save a bunch of money not installing curtains and movable masking. Now customers get a bare trampoline looking thing covering the whole wall. It looks cheap.
Thankfully at least some theaters are resisting that, such as Warren Theaters for instance.
quote: Steve Guttag
Ummmm Well Mr. Ray Dolby himself liked the color orange. In fact, he picked the color for the CP100...care to guess what it was? Orange. Check out the CP50 next time you see it...the racing stripe across its face...ORANGE. CP50 remotes, ORANGE.
I stand corrected on that. However the color orange on the CP750 is a very reddish looking orange, unlike the color on that example Terry posted. I'm still certain that oval orange thing was not produced by Dolby based on the use of type. They use Morgan Sans on all of their branding and advertising materials. The type in the Atmos white papers is set in Morgan Sans. The signage on the Dolby Theatre building (including the roof, visible in Google Earth) is set in Morgan Sans.
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Mike Blakesley
Film God
Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 01-11-2014 12:48 PM
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I was trying to have normal discussion with you and then you start saying stupid shit and now you are starting to act like a complete jack-ass. Assume that the pictures were taking from the same vantage point you idiot.
Well why didn't you say that in the first place? Either way, it's still hard to tell from those pics how many seats there are. I asked you a simple question and you chose to respond with a nonsensical question rather than just answer, so I don't know why that makes ME an idiot.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I also have very little respect for you. I don't think you understand how competitive and difficult the exhibition market is. You are probably the only game in town and when you have real competition, perhaps you should speak up.
Well obviously you don't know me very well. True, we have the only theater in town (it's a very small town) but people here have no problem driving long distances to do their shopping, and yes they sometimes go to movies out of town. So I consider those other venues competition. Whether that is valid to you makes no difference to me. There are lots of small town cinemas which just scrape by on "what they've always done." We don't do that here because we DO recognize that there is competition -- not only from other cinemas but from "the living room" as well. Therefore we have a loyal audience, which we have earned.
As for my experience, I've probably forgotten more about this industry than you'll ever know. Not only have I run a movie theater since 1979, but I'm a student of this business, which you would know if you read enough of my posts here. A very large share of what I know, I've learned right here on this site. I'm not a very technical person, I'm more interested in the business/management side of things. I've made mistakes many times and have not been afraid to admit it. You, on the other hand, come off like a smart-ass teenager who can't ever see another side to an argument or admit when he's been proven wrong.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 01-11-2014 02:57 PM
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
As for Dolby, they share some blame for theatre owners giving out the wrong messages. IMAX has a big one up on Dolby in that they monitor the theatres "real time" apparentl, I don't know how much truth there is in that but I have told you before, that is for you to decide. I have yet to see a theatre in my area use IMAX in the incorrect way.
Let's try this again: Dolby is not a franchise, like McDonalds, Jack in the Box or IMAX. Dolby produces equipment and licenses technology, just like Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Barco, you name it. They probably don't even WANT to be in the front-line of marketing, that's the job of the exhibitor. There's also just one Dolby theater, which has been named to honor the guy, not to market the brand.
Dolby never marketed their products like IMAX did and unlike IMAX their equipment ended up in almost every professional movie theater and countless screening rooms around the globe. Dolby Atmos is an expensive system to roll out, especially if you want to get all the benefits from it.
Furthermore, there are more Dolby Atmos installs on mainland Europe than IDF installs. IDF has been around since 2008, Dolby Atmos since 2012... But hey, IMAX is doing great in China, or something... You know, the country where somebody can just open up an IMEX theater across the street, using the same bold blue typeface.
In your posts, you make it sound like Dolby Atmos is already a failure, well... Tell me why?
quote:
I even said that the Ass-mos presentation was better.
(Emphasis mine) Do you really think this kind of childish behavior will buy you any credits?
quote:
I have very little respect for Bobby's opinion.
I also have very little respect for you.
Don't be an idiot Mike
(I took the liberty of combining those quotes, which weren't even directed at me.)
It is clear that you do not show much respect for the other members around here. Maybe you should keep in mind that you can still show respect to somebody, even if you do not agree with him or her on every point. The people you call idiots might actually know a thing or two you don't, might have developped a gut feeling that is more often right than wrong and even if they are wrong on certain topics, it's still not helping anyone by treating them like assholes.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
The real problem I have with the current Dolby ads is that it is playing to the same 90's type crowd and it gets added in after all of the other advertising of what the particular theatre has to offer. The Dolby Atmos trailers are nothing special.
So, how exactly is this different than IDF? They play one trailer once the "IDF experience" starts, then usually two or three trailers of upcoming IDF releases, then you get the Count-Down trailer followed by the actual "The IMAX Experience" feature.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Meanwhile Barco, DTS and a few others are trying to come up with an open standards object based sound format.
Hmmm... interesting, got any additional info on that?
quote: Sam D. Chavez
More like a bar fight. If we were all in the same room the stools would have flown around by now.
I've never understood the pleasure one could get from correspondence chess, but maybe the equivalent in bar fighting is a bit more entertaining ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Terry Lynn-Stevens
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1081
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2012
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posted 01-11-2014 03:00 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
I can't find anything like that for the competing Auro 3D 11.1 format, much less any sort of simple list of installations. Theater chains installing Auro aren't even bothering to list which ones have it.
There is no hope for Auro, no chance at all.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Some theater chains do a good job hyping Atmos on their web sites and in theaters while others stink at it.
And IMO, this is where Dolby needs to step up to the plate and provide better exhibitor support. After all, if IMAX can get almost all distributors and exhibitors to title their movie "An IMAX 3D Experience" they why can't Dolby get their exhibitors to do it right. I have yet to see any confusion on exhibitors websites displaying mixed messages for IMAX, and IMAX gets this part right.
As for the trailer issue that I have now seen three times in less than a month, it would all be solved with a KDM lock on the trailers. I don't fall for the whole logistics bullshit as once again, if IMAX can prevent the wrong messages in their theatres, then why can't Dolby?
I saw Hobbit 2 advertised outside the theatre, and on the web with "see it" in Dolby Atmos taglines, then the movie starts and it is Dolby 7.1 Surround, most recently The Wolf of Wall Street and Lone Survivor were both advertised with Dolby Atmos trailers. With have digital technology now and it can be prevented.
I will give Dolby credit where they deserve it, calling the format Atmos and not XX.1 was brilliant, customers do not give a shit that the movie is playing in 7.1, 11.1 or 64.1.
I still believe that allowing an exhibitor to add Atmos to any theatre is not good long term for the brand, there is too much risk of a good sound presentation but a really shit picture presentation.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 01-11-2014 03:15 PM
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
As for the trailer issue that I have now seen three times in less than a month, it would all be solved with a KDM lock on the trailers.
Solving problems like lack of dedication and honesty with digital walls has almost never lead to any good...
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
most recently The Wolf of Wall Street and Lone Survivor were both advertised with Dolby Atmos trailers.
I don't understand this... The theater you watched it made a special trailer for this? Neither movie has an Atmos mix and has never officially been advertised with Atmos. Or is it just that they ran this trailer AFTER the Atmos trailer? Well, it would be better to run the Atmos trailer before the movie starts, but otherwise, big deal...
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I will give Dolby credit where they deserve it, calling the format Atmos and not XX.1 was brilliant, customers do not give a shit that the movie is playing in 7.1, 11.1 or 64.1.
Dolby didn't call their system 64.1, because it is not 64.1 or 64.2 or whatever...
I've once seen a theater advertise the imm sound system with something like 23.2, but I guess that's because they didn't know how to market an object based sound system to a crowd that's used to stuff like "5.1".
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Mike Blakesley
Film God
Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 01-11-2014 04:17 PM
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I don't fall for the whole logistics bullshit as once again, if IMAX can prevent the wrong messages in their theatres, then why can't Dolby?
Because they don't feel the need to babysit their exhibitors maybe? Because they prefer to treat exhibitors like thinking adults rather than irresponsible kids?
I agree with you on one thing, Dolby does not do a good job with distributing its promo material. I don't understand this at all...you can go on their website, hit the Contact Us button, say "HEY! I want to promote your brand in my venue and it won't even cost you anything! Please send me some materials" and you will get ignored. If it wasn't for a Dolby dealer here on Film-Tech, we never would have gotten any promo goodies for our Dolby 3D.
I wish they would make some of their older trailers available. I assume they don't because the logos have been updated and they don't want old logos floating around. I'm still steamed that they have (for some unknown reason) discontinued the "Sphere" trailer in 5.1, and I wish they would come out with a trailer that showed off their sound in a musical way, rather than with all the clanking, banging and whooshing they seem to be stuck on these days. (Maybe it's because with music, they'd have to pay actual musicians, where with simple noise a group of flunkies at keyboards can come up with something? I don't know.)
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-12-2014 12:30 AM
quote: Marcel Birgelen
Hmmm... interesting, got any additional info on that?
I read a couple online articles about open standards object based audio here and there. Here's one article from the Hollywood Reporter about it.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
There is no hope for Auro, no chance at all.
Terry, you wouldn't be saying that if you actually did any research about the topic. Regal recently signed a deal to install Auro 11.1 in 20 of their RPX theaters (Regal already has Atmos on 20 of their RPX screens). Cinemark signed a deal to put Auro 11.1 in nearly all of their XD theaters. Cinemark has 91 XD screens with half a dozen more opening before summer. Cinemark has 3 XD screens equipped with Atmos. Carmike has roughly 20 of those "Big D" screens, they have Atmos on one of them in Illinois and Auro 11.1 on a BigD screen in Georgia. Carmike appears to be leaning toward putting Auro on all remaning Big D screens.
Auro 11.1 isn't nearly as good a sound format as Atmos. It doesn't have any many movie mixes as Atmos, but it is getting support from some key movies. Auro is significantly less expensive to install than Atmos. I'm sure Dolby is pretty concerned about Auro.
quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
And IMO, this is where Dolby needs to step up to the plate and provide better exhibitor support. After all, if IMAX can get almost all distributors and exhibitors to title their movie "An IMAX 3D Experience" they why can't Dolby get their exhibitors to do it right.
With IMAX it's real simple. Anything playing in the IMAX house, even if it's a TV commercial for Folgers coffee crystals, is playing in "The IMAX Experience." Duh.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Since IMAX is in a revenue sharing partnership with the movie studios and movie theaters this also means there are contracts involved. Some of the stipulations in the contract most certainly involve branding and use of branding. This isn't any different than a douche-bag A-list movie star having a contract to get his name put above the movie title.
Lots of non-theater businesses do "co-op" advertising, such as car dealerships. The dealerships must have their signage and other advertising materials conform to the auto company's branding program. If not, the car manufacturer won't help pay their advertising costs and even force the dealer to remove the offending materials.
Dolby isn't in a position to force movie studios and movie theaters to use their branding a certain way or give them more visibility in a movie's ad campaign. With as much as Atmos costs to install, maybe Dolby should have put it into a revenue sharing model, like Real D. Unfortunately Atmos isn't the kind of system that can be thrown slap dash into hundreds of theaters at a time. It's a more complicated system to install. Dolby's personnel has been doing much if not all the install work.
quote: Marcel Birgelen
I don't understand this... The theater you watched it made a special trailer for this? Neither movie has an Atmos mix and has never officially been advertised with Atmos. Or is it just that they ran this trailer AFTER the Atmos trailer?
I think what Terry meant was he watched The Wolf of Wall Street and the theater ran a Dolby Atmos trailer before the movie began. I guess he is claiming the same theater did that on Lone Survivor was well. If true, those would be mistakes. Terry keeps wanting to blame Dolby for those mistakes when 100% of the blame goes to the theater personnel.
Dolby certainly isn't perfect with its marketing. But this is one area where Dolby isn't to blame. Theater operators should know better. However, Dolby could do a much better job educating theater operators and supplying them with marketing materials.
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-12-2014 01:26 AM
Hmmm, I run out of town to do some installs and Terry comes in and blows up the place with what appears to be nothing more than good old fashioned trolling. (Sorry, there's too much to read and I don't have the time, but in skimming that certainly appears to be what's going on.)
Terry, Atmos WILL become the standard. From what I read the only thing you are right about is that Auro might as well hang up the hat right now, that there is NO WAY it will survive. As far as IMAX goes, it's a joke and it has been ever since they went digital. Their sound systems are poor, they don't understand even the most basic of presentation standards (no masking) and they are running the company purely based upon the name they built for themselves back when their 15/70 system actually meant something. People everywhere are starting to see more and more through their marketing bullshit and IMAX will die pretty quick if they don't make some MAJOR changes to their quality standards.
To quote Joe, if you disagree, you are wrong. Now enough of this bickering.
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