Five screen channel list - help needed

[Bill Ryan]

The original real ease of This is Cinerama was indeed on 6 track sound in New York but some time later all other installations used 7 track off mag full coat. The early 6 track clusters had the heads staggered (not good for phasing) the theatres after The New York install all had 8 auditorium channels. Cinerama was actually the
first to come up with the 5 across the front system. In all the Cinerama sound tracks I have none have a control track or perspecta it wasn’t invented in that era. None that I have have a mono backup track either, the only use of that I believe was on the baker panel of Cinemiricale prints that had a mono backup track played back through a penthouse reader.
Cheers ,
Bill.

[Allan Young]

Fascinating, many thanks for that.

Purely guesswork here, but as This is Cinerama was definitely recorded with seven-track sound, presumably the original intention was for that to be recreated in cinemas. Perhaps they got cold feet over the reliability of the system and produced a mix which folded down the two surround tracks into one and added the mono track as a backup.

[Martin Brooks]

I'd appreciate it if you could check it out, as I'd be interested in what was said on the Blu-Ray. If this was indeed the case there must have been three iterations of the This is Cinerama soundtrack--control signal on track seven, mono on track seven and finally stereo surrounds. The new print which was specially struck for the Bradford Media Museum definitely has stereo surrounds.


The "two configurations", i.e. the manual steering of the surround tracks, were used for all the travelogues and all of them had stereo surround, with the possible exception of the early mono-on-track-seven configuration you mentioned. The sound engineer's control settings sheet for Search fo Paradise is reproduced in Carr and Hayes' Wide Screen Movies book and it has three columns for "Speaker 7" (OPEN/OFF), "Speaker 8" (OPEN/OFF) and "6 - 6 & 7 7-8" (RIGHT/LEFT - referring to the rotary dial which chose one of the two configurations). Confusingly (it's a book riddled with errors) they also mention a Perspecta-style control tone on track seven, but this seems unlikely. If the sound steering could be automated in this way, why would the cinemas go to the expense of hiring a sound engineer?

(Minor point, but I think you may be mistaken on the 47mm width of the tracks, which were on 35mm mag fullcoat.)

I went back to re-watch the video. One thing I had forgotten was that during the intermission for This Is Cinerama, Lowell Thomas gave a filmed demonstration of “stereophonic sound” with an image of 6 VU meters – 5 stage channels + 1 (obviously mono) surround channel. I don’t remember that in the showing of that film at the Museum of Modern Art some years ago after the Blu-ray was released. Not sure if they showed a Blu-ray or a DCP, but I suspect it was the Blu-ray.

I have the Carr & Hayes book. I can't say I understand that cue sheet. I wish I could find a photo and/or description of that switch. And yes, they wanted to believe there was Perspecta everywhere because for reasons unkown, they loved Perspecta.

These are the relevant portions of the UCLA Blu-ray history of movie sound in regards to Cinerama, almost verbatim:
“All six channels of audio were recorded side-by-side on 35mm magnetic film…..Monophonic sound effects on track 6 were sent to Altec 629 direct radiator speakers….initially there were only three surround speakers, but many more of these would soon be installed to provide better coverage.

“To create better directional effects, it was planned that selected sounds should be able to move from one set of surround speakers to another if desired. To accomplish this, Hazard Reeves added another track…this was track 7 and it was supposed to contain special control signals automatically moving sounds around the auditorium. Apparently, the control tones failed to work reliably in early tests and so the automated system was phased out around the time of Cinerama’s public debut. Track 7 was then reconfigured to contain a mono mix…Despite this alteration, a description of the now abandoned control tone system continued to appear in Cinerama program booklets over the next several years.

“To make up for the loss of automation, a sound control engineer was required to be on duty during Cinerama shows, making manual volume and switching adjustments to move sound among the surround speakers.

“And then, in 1954, while This Is Cinerama continued to play in New York and other cities, the original 6-channel recording system was replaced with an even better format, now featuring seven discrete channels recorded on 7 magnetic tracks, each 47 mills wide (a mill is 1/1000^th of an inch, so 47 mills = 1.1938 millimeters, but that doesn’t sound right to me either because 7 x 47 mills = 329 mills = 8.3566mm and we know the 7 tracks took up almost the full width of 35mm film minus the sprocket hole area).

“The track width and layout were now uniform system-wide and standardized for all future Cinerama productions….tracks 6 and 7 were now capable of providing genuine left and right stereophonic surround sound, if desired. The sound control operator continued to be present at all shows to handle special situations, such as manually switching to the rear auditorium loudspeakers. “

He also said that 24fps began with “The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm” but my notes show that Holiday in Spain and Lafayette were also 24fps.

[Allan Young]

I went back through my old notes and found some conflicting info, but the 2nd set sort of confirms what you wrote. I believe that both of these came from the "A Century of Sound" Blu-ray set which covers 1933-1975 that was put out by UCLA and presented by Robert Gift. (There's also a DVD set that covers 1876-1932).
I'll have to go back and watch it again to confirm, but I believe he said for the premiere of Cinerama in 1952 that Track 7 contained control signals that failed to work reliably and was phased out before release. Instead, they put a mono fold-down on track 7.

I'd appreciate it if you could check it out, as I'd be interested in what was said on the Blu-Ray. If this was indeed the case there must have been three iterations of the This is Cinerama soundtrack--control signal on track seven, mono on track seven and finally stereo surrounds. The new print which was specially struck for the Bradford Media Museum definitely has stereo surrounds.

But when he gets to 1954, he says that Cinerama sound was "improved" and that there were 7 discrete channels on 7 mag tracks, 47 millimeters wide. Tracks 6 and 7 could potentially provide stereo surround and that a sound control operator was still present to switch from sides to rear, but he wasn't specific about which films did have stereo surround and I don't believe he ever mentioned that there could have been two configurations: left/right surround or mono left-right surround + rear surround as you've indicated.

The "two configurations", i.e. the manual steering of the surround tracks, were used for all the travelogues and all of them had stereo surround, with the possible exception of the early mono-on-track-seven configuration you mentioned. The sound engineer's control settings sheet for Search fo Paradise is reproduced in Carr and Hayes' Wide Screen Movies book and it has three columns for "Speaker 7" (OPEN/OFF), "Speaker 8" (OPEN/OFF) and "6 - 6 & 7 7-8" (RIGHT/LEFT - referring to the rotary dial which chose one of the two configurations). Confusingly (it's a book riddled with errors) they also mention a Perspecta-style control tone on track seven, but this seems unlikely. If the sound steering could be automated in this way, why would the cinemas go to the expense of hiring a sound engineer?

(Minor point, but I think you may be mistaken on the 47mm width of the tracks, which were on 35mm mag fullcoat.)

[Martin Brooks]

Indeed, as I pointed out to the OP upthread in an attempt to avoid confusion. Every Cinerama/Cinemiracle three-strip title had 7 audio tracks. All of the documentary features were screened with a sound engineer manually steering the two surround tracks. Tracks six and seven were either used for left/right surround or the sixth track was sent to both right and left surrounds with track seven feeding the back surround. Hence eight audio "channels".


I don't think this is correct. The later narrative three-strip titles did away with the surround steering and settled on only having right and left surround channels from tracks six and seven.

I went back through my old notes and found some conflicting info, but the 2nd set sort of confirms what you wrote. I believe that both of these came from the "A Century of Sound" Blu-ray set which covers 1933-1975 that was put out by UCLA and presented by Robert Gift. (There's also a DVD set that covers 1876-1932).
I'll have to go back and watch it again to confirm, but I believe he said for the premiere of Cinerama in 1952 that Track 7 contained control signals that failed to work reliably and was phased out before release. Instead, they put a mono fold-down on track 7.

But when he gets to 1954, he says that Cinerama sound was "improved" and that there were 7 discrete channels on 7 mag tracks, 47 millimeters wide. Tracks 6 and 7 could potentially provide stereo surround and that a sound control operator was still present to switch from sides to rear, but he wasn't specific about which films did have stereo surround and I don't believe he ever mentioned that there could have been two configurations: left/right surround or mono left-right surround + rear surround as you've indicated.

[Allan Young]

There's a difference between tracks and audio channels.

Indeed, as I pointed out to the OP upthread in an attempt to avoid confusion. Every Cinerama/Cinemiracle three-strip title had 7 audio tracks. All of the documentary features were screened with a sound engineer manually steering the two surround tracks. Tracks six and seven were either used for left/right surround or the sixth track was sent to both right and left surrounds with track seven feeding the back surround. Hence eight audio "channels".

Eventually, they put a mono fold down on the 7th track.

I don't think this is correct. The later narrative three-strip titles did away with the surround steering and settled on only having right and left surround channels from tracks six and seven.

[Martin Brooks]

@ Stefan:


thanks for the info; I got this list about Cinerama; where all 7-tracks?

There's a difference between tracks and audio channels.

It's my understanding that the early 3-strip Cinerama films were intended to have 6 audio tracks with the 7th track using tones to steer the surrounds, similar to what Perspecta did a few years later for the screen speakers, but they couldn't get it working and they actually had a mixer in the studio steering the surrounds according to a script. Eventually, they put a mono fold down on the 7th track.
I've never heard of 8-channel Cinerama films. Can anyone with definite knowledge confirm whether there were any and what the layout was? And if there were, did they keep changing the heads on the 35mm mag reader depending upon whether it was 7 tracks or 8 tracks?

[Martin Brooks]

Larry, thanks for the very interesting insights - we need a new thread about SDDS 8 channel, I guess!

I wonder if SDDS-8 had the same issue as 70mm 6-track - the channel spread.
I mean, I always thought that SDDS-8 tracks were always mixed using the inner LE RE channels "properly", at least according to what I read on various magazines that interviewed the sound engineers.

Are you aware of some SDDS-8 mixes that were actually three screen channels mixes but spread over five?

Back in the day, I consulted for a company that evaluated presentation on opening day. We were not permitted to talk to any theater employees. We did have to indicate the audio format. Whenever I went to an SDDS-8 film in a theater that claimed it was playing it in that sound format, I could never perceive LC and RC.

[Steve Guttag]

... But I was leery about the chances of a DCP with Lc-Rc information being played properly, even though (someone correct me here if I'm wrong), tracks 7 and 8 in the DCI spec were originally for Lc-Rc.) The four-surround 7.1, which I believe was introduced starting in 2010, was not yet an issue, but today certainly confuses things because the above movies were also in "7.1." (So in my file names for those movies I use "7.1SDDS,"...

This is correct. Channels 7 and 8 were originally LC/RC. Channels 15/16 were to be the ADA channels but this gave way as the need for the ADA (particularly VI-N) was high and early servers did not support or completely support channels 9-16. So, LC/RC moved to channels 9 and 10, where they reside, to this day...and I am unaware of any DCP release that has used them in that manner.

Note, too, in the early stages of DCinema development, Surround-EX was still a thing, not 7.1 and one can still see vetages of EX in some digital cinema equipment and TMSes (e.g. TCC/ACE still have a CHANNEL_61 cue and the CP750 could perform an EX decode on the surrounds). However, when Surround 7.1 came out, that was it for any sort of EX continuation. They were assigned the next pair of 11 and 12...where they reside to this day. Naming wise, we had two 7.1 configurations so the traditional 5-across was designated as 7.1SDS (yes, missing the other D).

While on this topic, here's something that I've not read about ANYWHERE, something that's hiding in plain sight. Quick question/riddle: where today can one easily find five-screen-channel theaters? The answer is to start with the approximately 300 Dolby Cinema theaters worldwide, because (AFAIK) every one of them has five screen channels. That is, they all have wider-than-40-ft screens, and thus have to have them per Dolby's rule for Atmos installations. What percentage of the non-Dolby Cinema, but still Atmos commercial theaters have five screen channels, I would not hazard a guess, but good money has that it's a Very Large number.

I cannot speak to commercial cinemas but I'm currently working on a Dolby Cinema that will have just 3-screen channels. It is in a multi-use room and non-commercial cinema. The screen is less than 40-feet wide. So, I can assure you, not 100% of Dolby Cinemas are 5-across. I can assure you that all of the Dolby Atmos rooms that I have had a hand in designing are..even on smaller than 40-foot wide screens in screening rooms. All of my commercial Dolby Atmos rooms (which are always the largest auditoriums in the complex) have 5-screen channels and the surrounds are never culled or paired. If you record it, it will play it as recorded.

Five years ago I remastered Solaris and indeed we made a "7.1 SDDS" Atmos version in this manner.

I believe the DCP version of Oklahoma! was offered in Atmos for this reason. They placed LC/RC statically as objects. When the AFI/Silver, not a Dolby Atmos theatre, received the title, they had to run it in 5.1! They issued a 7.1 version file but that just dropped the back surrounds! I checked to see if they had placed anything on tracks 9/10 and called it 7.1...nope. They should have issued that movie as a "60" on DCP as a version file. That is the whole purpose of VERSION FILES is to provide for different things like sound mixes. When running a "classic" title, at the very least, offer the original mix. Those that can't support it can have the 5.1 version. Those that can...you know, the theatres that run classic 70mm titles, can run it with the classical track configuration. Furthermore, the odds that a title like Oklahoma! finds its way into a theatre like the AFI/Silver is FAR higher than in commercial Atmos theatres (and with higher regularity). These rooms, if they run 70mm will tend to have 5-across and a means to use them for film or DCP. They do not, necessarily, have Atmos.

[Andrea Rossi]

Larry, thanks for the very interesting insights - we need a new thread about SDDS 8 channel, I guess!

I wonder if SDDS-8 had the same issue as 70mm 6-track - the channel spread.
I mean, I always thought that SDDS-8 tracks were always mixed using the inner LE RE channels "properly", at least according to what I read on various magazines that interviewed the sound engineers.

Are you aware of some SDDS-8 mixes that were actually three screen channels mixes but spread over five?

[Larry Blake]

Hello:

As Steve Guttag noted above, I'm a big proponent of the five-screen channel format. I can tell you definitively that the following movies that I mixed used five screen channels extensively and intentionally, and not as some sort of after-the-fact upmix:

Out of Sight: 1998
Erin Brockovich: 2000
Ocean's Eleven: 2001
Solaris: 2002
Ocean's Twelve: 2004

And that's it for me. After that point, say, starting 2007 which includes Ocean's Thirteen, which I also mixed, SDDS was retreating fast into film sound history footnotes, and the DCI spec had arrived. Which is to say that on Ocean's Twelve we had specific pre-DCI digital cinema versions which required extensive handholding anyway. But I was leery about the chances of a DCP with Lc-Rc information being played properly, even though (someone correct me here if I'm wrong), tracks 7 and 8 in the DCI spec were originally for Lc-Rc.) The four-surround 7.1, which I believe was introduced starting in 2010, was not yet an issue, but today certainly confuses things because the above movies were also in "7.1." (So in my file names for those movies I use "7.1SDDS," even though I'm of course well aware of the format's beginnings with Cinerama and its perfection with the Todd-AO format primarily during the period from 1955-1971.)

While on this topic, here's something that I've not read about ANYWHERE, something that's hiding in plain sight. Quick question/riddle: where today can one easily find five-screen-channel theaters? The answer is to start with the approximately 300 Dolby Cinema theaters worldwide, because (AFAIK) every one of them has five screen channels. That is, they all have wider-than-40-ft screens, and thus have to have them per Dolby's rule for Atmos installations. What percentage of the non-Dolby Cinema, but still Atmos commercial theaters have five screen channels, I would not hazard a guess, but good money has that it's a Very Large number.

Dolby's reason for the five screen channels is to smooth out pans. That's all well and good, but there are a host of other reasons for using the five channels, and it's bloody easy to do: you just create "static objects" in the locations of the Lc and Rc channels, and Bob becomes your uncle.

Five years ago I remastered Solaris and indeed we made a "7.1 SDDS" Atmos version in this manner.

I'm going to have to ask around to my re-recording mixers colleagues who do many Atmos movies if they've ever used five screen screen channels with static objects in this manner.

I've never mixed a movie in "native Atmos" from the get-go, and were I ever to do so, this is how I'd do it. Fugeddabout the ridiculous objects flying in every direction or the ridiculous overhead speakers. To paraphrase Mark Knopfler, I want my five screen channels!

Best to all.

[Gordon McLeod]

Andrea said " And, the movies encoded in Dolby (matrix) Stereo at the beginning, did have the surround channel encoded nevertheless (leaving just the decoders without it)"
Incorrect the first matrix movies had no surround information encoded on them. As such it was called format 03 for the CP200 on the CP50 and 100 one selected Dolby Stereo no surround.
The first surround matrix used the QS Sansui quad chip to decode the surround post centre channel extraction on the 110 or pentoptical module. The first improvement increasing the channel seperation from 6db was the use of the Tate SQ chipset

[Andrea Rossi]

Remember that Dolby Optical Stereo was originally 3 channel LCR with no surrounds as was provided by the pentoptical module in a CP100 or the Cat 110 in cp50 and when surround was introduced they requried a outboard decoder initially SA1 up to SA4 for 35mm and for the CP100 the SA5 allowed for format 43 for Apocalypse Now and Superman

Thanks! But the LCR with no surround applies (technically, I mean) only to Dolby matrix, not to 70mm magnetic, right? And, the movies encoded in Dolby (matrix) Stereo at the beginning, did have the surround channel encoded nevertheless (leaving just the decoders without it), or it was added lately with a new chip? There was something about Tate and Sansui SQ, but can't recall properly...

[Gordon McLeod]

Thanks for the very interesting comment, Steve!

The whole "format affaire" is just to have something to put on the list - I could change them to
Dolby Stereo TODD-AO format (of five-screen channel)
Dolby Stereo mono surround
Dolby Stereo stereo surround
Dolby Stereo mono surround with Spectral Recording
Dolby Stereo stereo surround with Spectral Recording
but they are quite long

If you take a look at the updated list in the new thread, now the post-1980s releases should be OK.
The official Dolby list has only 70mm Dolby Stereo mono and stereo surround; no mention of Spectral Recording.

So, it must be assumed that, even if 6-track is capable of, well, six tracks, actually not many take advantage of the full channels, right?
As saying Dolby Stereo 35mm was capable of 4 (matrixed) channels L C R S, but maybe some did not use surround; indeed, at the end of the official Dolby list, there is the following statement:



I did not put in the list many 70mm blow-up, as I assumed (again, according to what I gathered) they used the 4-track master and thanks to 6-track they could send them non-matrixed, leaving LC/RC channels empty.

I've updated the new list according to what you wrote, changing from (five-screen channel) probably to unknown.
And you were completely right: I put my presumptions ahead of reality! Thanks again for the precious insights!

Remember that Dolby Optical Stereo was originally 3 channel LCR with no surrounds as was provided by the pentoptical module in a CP100 or the Cat 110 in cp50 and when surround was introduced they requried a outboard decoder initially SA1 up to SA4 for 35mm and for the CP100 the SA5 allowed for format 43 for Apocalypse Now and Superman

[Andrea Rossi]

Yes Allan, I'd like to include only feature-lenght movies - hence excluding documentaries, shorts etc.

I wrote it in the new thread and in the old DTS-SV, but I forgot to mention it in this list!

sorry SORRY SORRY!

It would be great if you want to continue to help anyway; sadly it's not possible (for me at least) to edit posts after some time, so I can't updated list here or there; but I'm updating mine meanwhile, and as it takes two posts because too long, I'll post it from time to time there: http://www.film-tech.com/vbb/forum/d...m-audio-tracks