There is more you can automate if you are handy with the soldering iron

[Bruce Cloutier]

I have been experimenting with the (inexplicably) inexpensive gadgets that you can get off Amazon. You all have underutilized JNIORs. So if you are willing to crack something open and tack a couple of wires around a switch/button you can get the JNIOR involved.

We track things with Redmine. I posted there about using a $10 remote controlled outlet with the JNIOR that I can share. See the attached PDF.

Yeah, I should replace the mat on my bench. I also grabbed a $20 motion detector. That wires easily to a digital input. I have been working on a HVAC related application and will be using the motion detection to track occupancy. Anyway, if you think of a use for motion detection in your cinema, just know that we would cough up a little application for you.

The point is that there is a lot of places where you can simulate a button press or parallel a switch to add a little automation. You just have to get in there and wire it!

Have any of you done anything like this? Thought about it?

[Steve Guttag]

Yeah...all the time but not with a $10 Amazon box, that I can't support and don't know if it will work or not and is, likely, not UL/ETL listed.

I've used Middle Atlantic products switched outlets (provide a contact closure). One version has a power cord (a long cord, at that), another version is a module in their raceway if you are building a power strip). I've also used Ethernet controlled receptacles...again Middle Atlantic Products has their RLNK series but so do others, like Watt box. We also use ATS (Automatic Transfer Switches) where, again the outlets are, individually accessible, on some models. We also make our own ATS with 2-3 switched outlets for things like projectors and servers.

Another low-cost way is to use RIB (Relay in a Box). They make them with various contact ratings (up to 30A, I believe...definitely 10A and 20A contact versions are available).

[Bruce Cloutier]

Definitely not an approach I would expect an integrator or installer to promote. I think it is UL certified. Obviously that is not of concern at the controller end. It being all low voltage stuff. My point is rather that if you have a remote control you might be able to wire a relay to cause a button press and get some perhaps more unique device to play in the automation. Unfortunately most of the audio and video remotes use complex conductive rubber switches in a matrix. So you get into programmable IR devices and all of that fun. It is harder yet now as remotes are getting away from IR.

We have a lot of DIY maker minded people looking for anything on the cheap like this to play with. This makes more sense than blowing relays, wired direct to line voltage, off of the board in dramatic fashion. Which does happen and, sometimes, get returned for warranty replacement.

I have no real clue how a device like this gets very nicely packaged and delivered next day for $10. We've been trying to get together nice retail packaging for years and can't find a way to get it done without it costing over twice that. And for packaging that goes right in the trash or recycling bin.

Do you have a good RIB source?

[Tj Hopland]

RIB's are great and I have lots of them out connected to things like Jniors when line voltage needs to be switched. Its handy for things like exhaust fans or where something is remote mounted and there are times it needs a hard power cycle. If you have never looked at their catalog take some time and see what they have to offer.

There is the series like the U1C where both the high (switched) side and low (control) side come out as pigtails out of a single box nipple. Depending on what the setup is this may not be ideal for keeping line and low voltages separate. No problem they still got you with something like say the TE24B where only the line voltage has the tails in the nipple and the control has its own inlet with a separator inside the box. They also have variants that have manual switches which can be handy.

Grainger's stocks many of the RIB models and while its not quite Home Depot that anyone can walk in they do have locations in most major cities and if you have any sort of business you can open an account. DigiKey also has them and I would guess most people that are tinkering with anything electronic have ordered from them. All the big electrical supply houses that electricians source their stuff seem to stock the popular ones and can seem to get oddball ones within a day or two. If I need one for a project there is usually an electrician involved so I just look up the number and tell them source it since they will be installing at least the line voltage part of it.

I have done the solder wires thing before usually for lighting. I did have a project with a whole building fancy lighting system that had no provision for any sort of automated booth control. We inquired about getting I think it was an RS232 interface and it would have cost like $4k by the time it was installed and programmed. They did at least have a push button station in the booth so the in house tech and I decided to solder onto it which worked.

As noted more often than not the design of the remote doesn't really lend itself to having wires soldered to it. That unit Bruce found looks like the only way it could have been more ideal is if it had screw terminals on it. Many times even getting the case apart is a destructive process where you find its a membrane you have to peel off to even see the board. If you can manage to solder to the board you loose the case and manual buttons. You may need the manual buttons for setting levels and paring so that's something to think about with your 'design'.

[Steve Guttag]

My preferred source for RIBs is SupplyHouse.com. They are employee owned out of New York and their service is pretty high. They are good for a lot of HVAC stuff, and some plumbing. You can nipple a RIB to a 4x4 with a duplex in it to make a relay controlled outlet. The RIBs are UL listed too. They often make the their relays AC/DC and with taps to work from low voltage to line voltage. With and without LEDs and with/without a local switch.

Again, the problem I have with Amazon special stuff is support. Great, you have this wireless thing that works when you test it but doesn't when a bunch of cell phones are in the room or near it. For $10, it is probably not UL/ETL listed, despite having the electrical receptacle/plug. It won't be listed for commercial use, for sure. It just has liability written all over it.

As for pricing. People have really gotten conditioned to using, effectively, slave labor that they don't see. I remember when DVD players (and probably Blu-ray) were something like $35 at Walmart. I asked...how is it possible to put that technology into its own box, put that into a cardboard box, have documentation of sorts and get it to the store for sale...paying all of the transportation and such along the way...for $35? You can't even get a transport mechanism for that kind of money...let alone the whole thing. It only works when you remove the cost of labor from the equation and they probably have the most money in the mechanism and the enclosure. But people think that is what a device like that should cost. Apple, on the other hand, also using, effectively, slave labor so controls their product that they don't need to lower their sales price as they are not competing with anyone for iPhones. They are competing for phones but the other "big-boys" follow Apple's lead. Apple stops you from changing your battery, so does Samsung and the others...Apple "unnovates" (Sam Time reference...I highly recommend his videos...look up "unnovate") something...so does the others.

[Bruce Cloutier]

I appreciate the RIB discussion. I have an internal thread going discussing automation involved with typical 3-way and 4-way light circuits. You know whether the lights are on/off when you flip the switch at either end of the hall. But the automation in that circuit doesn't know whether to open or close the relay to get the lights on or off. So you either use a CT or something so the automation can tell if the circuit is on, or you involve the 3-way switches with the automation and toggle just one main relay. We're taking the override situation more seriously and providing the ability to control circuits even when the automation is offline. It is part of the spec for Series 5.

Anyway, this involves RIBs and I was looking for a source that is commonly used. As opposed to kludging something for demonstration.

[Steve Guttag]

3-way switches are just single-pole double-throw switches. 4-way are slightly more complicated as they cross the switches to switch the runners. That all can be done with suitable relays. As to knowing the state of the circuit, yeah, that is tricky. You could always get feedback from the load to know when it is on. Or a CT (current transducer) as you mentioned.

I always liked Eprad's for film lamphouses by clamping a reed relay to one of the DC cables feeding the lamphouse to sense if current was flowing...very low cost and effective...plus isolated. They just used an EMT strap to mount the reed relay too. I probably should have done that for Christie's xenon based DCinema projectors with their unexpected lamp-offs. Film-Tech actually used photocells to see if the lamp was actually on.

[Bruce Cloutier]

Exactly. The possibility of using latching relays creates another dimension to this. Those save power but more importantly you don't have to keep the automation active. You can use a battery or store some energy to let you toggle the relay (override) even when the automation is off.

The logic in including some ability to override circuits without creating risk that those circuits might not be in the right configuration for when you need them to operate properly, can cause your head to spin. This is where a simple RIB is not exactly all you need.

We have situations where they want external lights on several building to track the main building but yet allow those to be switched manually like any other outside light. Worse, those need to follow a schedule that might not have the whole facility lit. Oh, and there is a photocell that keeps lights off until dusk. Of course, it is a retrofit so the standard electrical wiring is all still in place. So not hard to do. It just doesn't seem like it should be so custom.

[Harold Hallikainen]

I have tried to find relay switched outlet that just takes a contact closure to turn the outlet on and off. All the stuff I've found is radio linked (WiFi or Bluetooth). So, I built my own as described at https://w6iwi.org/rtty/DspTU2/#:~:te...The%20DSP%20TU . But, it would be nice to be able to just buy something.

[Tj Hopland]

Legrand (formerly Middle Atlantic) and Atlas (formerly Soundolier) both still have products in their modular lines that are switched outlets that can be operated with dry contacts. Both you buy what ever length channel you want usually the height of a rack and then you can load in what ever type of outlet modules you want from plain to dry contact to IP network control.

[Steve Guttag]

The Middle Atlantic (Legrand hasn't squashed their individual brand names) is available though its price attractiveness diminished after 2020 supply chain issues and has been exasperated by tariffs such that it is about 50% higher than 2020.

https://www.legrandav.com/products/power/compact_power/mpr_stand_alone_power_distribution/rlm-15-1ca

It is a go-to for an ETL listed contact closure receptacle (it is also available in a 20A version).

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It is available in modular form too...if you have the Middle Atlantic Raceway system (MPR)

[Bruce Cloutier]

For the hardwired situations these are interesting. There are latching models with an extra set of contacts that can be used to detect the state of the relay. For us you would ideally want to switch with 12VDC and these are often a higher voltage or AC. That just adds another power supply to the automation setup. You may already have it.

https://www.functionaldevices.com/ca...Relay-Products

These are available from DigiKey as Marketplace products.

{Edit] Search DigiKey for "Functional Devices". Most are under $50.