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Author Topic: Best/worst projector Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-08-2005 07:07 PM                     "A little history now: the Cinemeccanica projectors were never intended to be used for movie theatres (with the exception of newer models). They were manufactured originally to be used for naval defence presentations. After the company realized that they had built a dependable machine, they decided to open up their projector line to the movie theatres. Believe me, they are still laughing at us for even still having the machine, particularly the V4s and the V5s, and now are charging premium prices for their parts. No, these machines no longer put on an acceptable presentation but are cheaper than buying new machines. These things are simply outdated. " I would like to know what you are smoking Cinemecanica has been manufactureing cinema products longer than any other manufacturer still in business and the V4 was a staple in european cinemas from its date of conception They have also like the entire cinemacanica line proven to be very robust and dependable The V4 image steadiness may be an issue but there are work around improvements  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 04-09-2005 04:15 AM                     True. I Loved my Cine V-18 13k reel (which held 145min of film) setup. One of the best machines that I ever worked with-much better than any Simplex around (course, once again, it's how you treat and work with the machine). Yet, I've heard tekkies dread working on a V-8/18 setup, and hated this assembly(ies). I babied these things until they would run as I want them to. I also had the 10k reels for the front arms, but never used them due to the platter guidance rollers. Here is my V-18 at a theatre that I used to work at and now is closed: We were a discount twin house and sometimes had 3 prints playing in one house. The first two prints were on AW-2's which was behind the unit, and the reel transport would hold the 3rd print. The other house had the V-18 setup as well, but I didn't want to use the reel transport much due to the original transission had slightly worn brass gears whereas the one in this picture had a new transmission and motor. Units were all 3phase 208v-even the little blower motor that cools the aperture area was a 208v motor. Why the 3phase due to the reel motor started in steps: motor, in 1st phase, would come on first before the projector motor. Then would goto 2nd phase for more takeup tension, then final tension would be with the 3rd phase kicking in. The sideshooter lamphouse would be on all the time. There was a big dowser plate that would block the light and could take the heat from the lamp. We had 2500w vertical bulbs with "red tint" glass mirrors. Yours truly at a Mann Theatre in the mid 80's with my first experience with V-5's, LP 270's and Xetron Consoles. I learned quite a bit about these machines, on how they'd tick and what to expect from them. In a whole, these V-5's weren't that bad of a machine. Just had to get used to belt driven machines and aluminum belt sprockets that would wear easily. Only thing that I didn't like with the Cine's that there were no middle constant speed sprocket-the sprocket right after the intermittent. Unit relied on even flow of film from intermittent through the scanner drum area to the final sprocket. Any "bumps" and "jogs" within this film path was murder on optical playback. Thus, those plastic rollers and dampner units, had to be constantly maintained for smooth film travel. Yet, I've noticed that with the Ernemanns, and the Dresdens, this sprocket wasn't on these machines as well. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 04-09-2005 07:51 AM                        I was told that the Italian Merchant Marine was the "first-user." The pictures I saw showed a projector stored in a wooden crate beneath the galley lunch table. The mechanism was then lifted onto the table and secured. The reels were under the table, This is the origin of the machine that had a film chute up and over the lamphouse. (AMC Theatres vintage 1968-1976) Louis  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 04-09-2005 10:41 AM                     On Ernemann 12 and 15 they use a film clutch drag roller and keeper to back tension the film prior to going into the soundhead.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-09-2005 01:06 PM                     quote: Louis Bornwasser I was told that the Italian Merchant Marine was the "first-user." As I suspected, not exactly Navy duty of any sort!! Mark  |  IP: Logged Larry Shaw Expert Film Handler Posts: 238 From: Boston, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-06-2005 06:05 PM                        Back to the posts about Lucasfilm/Stag/etc. (around Nov 2004) FWIW the new ILM facility at the Citadel has FP-38ECII's. Not "all video" for Mr Lucas yet it seems.....  |  IP: Logged System Notices Forum Watchdog / Soup Nazi Posts: 215 Registered: Apr 2004 posted 05-14-2008 10:28 PM                 It has been 1104 days since the last post.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 05-14-2008 10:28 PM                        There were a few different threads about best/worst projector, including one that was started back when all we had was the old bulletin board style forum where everyone's posts were all individual links on a single page (but the posts were translated to fit these forums). This thread seems to have the most discussion and was started on the UBB, so it is the one I chose to resurrect. It's funny how opinions change over time. In my original post, I preferred the Century SA as the best and the Christie gearless as the worst. My choices are now quite different. Here they are along with explanations: Out of the equipment that I have used (and I have by no means used every piece of equipment ever made): Best Projector: Christie gearless. - Christie made tons of improvements to this projector over the years, even when I was working with my previously crappy ones. By the time I left that theater, they were great. The new ones are even better. I still like the Century SA, don't get me wrong, but I like the Christie a little more than that now. I have not used a Kinoton, but they look bizarre. They need to put racing stripes or a spoiler or something on them to make them look sexier. They look pregnant. I have decided that I do not approve of this. You shouldn't, either. Worst Projector: I hate Brenkerts! They were a pain to thread and I swear they leaked a gallon of oil per show. There is a damn good reason they stopped making these things. If they were better, they would have sold more. I also do not particularly like Simplex projectors (note: some people refer to them simply as "Strong" these days). Yes, they are built like tanks. Tanks must leak a hell of a lot of oil. Truthfully they aren't gawdaful, but that 5 star soundhead design in beyond stupid. The designer should be ashamed. I take comfort in knowing that he is likely dead now and will not be designing any more soundheads. I do not like Cinemeccanica, either. They are great if you happen to be in an earthquake zone, as that is the only way to compensate for the built-in shakiness and get a steady picture on screen with these machines. Sheesh! Let's take this further! Best Platter: Christie AW3 without doubt or hesitation. No need to explain why. I don't understand why other brands of platters even exist. Worst Platter: ORC/CFS Super Platter. These orange things are the worst! Check out our review on these things. Crappy MUT as well. I do not care for Strong platters, but they are a hell of a lot better than the Super Platter. Even so, the wimpy brain design, no backtension, tiny rollers, lack of film cleaner mount, speed which is controlled by the variac and horizontal MUT all are poor choices in platter design. Who designed this? One thing is for certain, the designer never worked in a booth! Best Lamphouse: Christie SLC series. What more do you need? Want motorized lamp adjustment? You've got it (as an add-on option). Frickin' awesome light emitted from these god damn things. Worst Lamphouse: Those orange ORC pieces of crap. Or pretty much anything that has a vertically sitting bulb which reflects off of a mirror. Who thought this would be a good thing? Best Splicer: I still like the Neumade 35SS and the Splycemar 35SS which is the exact same thing but much cheaper than the Neumade. I guess there really is no need to purchase the Neumade version unless you enjoy spending more. In second place is the Strong splicer, but it is a very, very, very distant second place. Worst Splicer: CIR. Yuck! Best Automation: Christie/Pennywise CA21 - This used to be my most hated automation and it was pretty much worthless. Then I demanded that Pennywise improve it. Oh boy, did they ever! They'll customize it for you as well and it can be configured to do just about anything. Best automation ever. Why use anything else? Worst Automation: Really hard to say, but I am currently hating on the Christie AM8 Basic automation which we have installed in two auditoriums at my current theater including our large giant screen auditorium! It accepts only one cue, it does not trigger non-sync when the stop button is pressed until 8 seconds have passed, it offers next to no control of anything and is pretty much worthless. I am not sure why such an inferior and incapable automation was ever invented. And what is it doing in our largest house? Best Rewind Bench: I am partial to the Kelmars. Every modern theater has at least one and they work great. Perhaps a bit expensive, but they do the job well. Worst Rewind Bench: Neumade PRT Ultra - Ug. These things offer limited control, crappy spindles and nothing about them is good. Nothing. Or maybe those 2000' reel rewinders which have two speeds; full speed and off. That is just stupid. I don't think intelligence had been invented yet when those things were designed. Best Sound Processor: Dolby C650 - The screen is way too small to be anything more than "barely useful", but it is a class processor regardless. Unfortunately there are no games built into the CP650 like there were in the CP500... that I have discovered. Worst Sound Processor: Not sure, probably something by EPRAD. I'm comfortable saying that, I think. I also do not like the Dolby CP45. What the hell was up with that thing? I could go on, but I won't. You can, though.  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 05-15-2008 10:04 AM                        quote: Joe Redifer that is the only way to compensate for the built-in shakiness and get a steady picture on screen with these machines. Sorry Joe, I have to take issue with this. I have serviced theatres with Cinnemecanicca machines and after some basic TLC, and replacement of worn parts, and a shutter gearbox or 10 these machines would run very smooth, quiet, and steady. I also feel the same way about the Pro-35 with some care, replacement of framing couplers (Bobbins!!!) and some other parts these machines would run very quiet an put out a rock solid picture. Training of the theatre staff to thread in frame and to be very gentle with the framing control was important too! I think the potts, strong, and neumade with the tiny ball bearing rollers, micro-switch feed plates, motors that need to be disengaged for tear down, and decks supported by "fins" underneath are the worst platter design. A film handling machine should not need to be modified out of the box to not damage film. The lack of back tension itsekf is enough to cause a lot of film damage. I would vote for the Eprad "Starlette" or "Star Scope" and those turqois colored Smart processors (I forget the model) as the worst Sound Processors easily hands down. I actually services 2 theatres that had these Starlette's and Star Scopes! It was awesome when someone would yell in the soundtrack all of a sudden there would be a loud "click" in the surrounds and they would suddenly come one then shut off a few seconds later. VERY VERY distracting. I guess these created a surround channel by taking anything signal over a certain volume and using it as a "cue" to turn on the surround speakers which were fed the same mono signal as the center channel I vote for the Cinemation Mark Four as the worst automation because each machine I have seen is wired differently with different colored wire and different components. I can imagine a room full of blue haired old english ladies sitting there wiring these things up over a never ending gossip session!!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-15-2008 10:15 AM                     I agree pretty much with what Joes says. The Christie gear made today is well beyond the quality of any other equipment produced in North America. Then only two places Joe is dead wrong is about splicers and Brenkerts. First off the Strong International(This is very definately one place to call them Wrong International) splicer. This thing is a total waste of metal and people's energy to assemble them! It doesn't even rate at my end. I have yet to see one that actually cuts the tape and perforates the film completely. I'd rate this splicer right up there with the 69.00 Indian copy of the Ciro. Both these seem to work well when new for about 50 splices. Brenkerts.... Joe.... Brenkerts go way back to 1939! All oil bath machines drip some oil and Brenkerts CAN be made as drip proof as a Black wrinkle Simplex if rebuilt properly. I used to service tons of Brenkerts in Chicago and they gave little trouble overall. Yea, they can be a bit messy and they are a heavy load on the soundhead gearbox but the machines are built like a tank and the BX-60 literally is THE projector that NEVER wears out. There are still a half dozen BX-60's running in this general area putting out rock steady pictures. BTW: The earlier cast iron variant of the BX-80 weighs in at nearly 140 lbs just for a projector head! The BX- 40, 80 and 100 are dead though because Wolk screwed up the only replacement batch of conical fibre shutter gears they made for these models. The BX-60 doesn't use that gear. If you can find an original Brenkert shutter gear laying around... even a used one... the machine will keep on chugging for more decades. Sean... I completely disagree with you on the Shakeamecannicas! This paragraph will more than likely start a barrage of other comments in the Vic 5's favor but oh well... I've always seen the Vic 5 is a total piece of junk... right up there with the old P-35's with the gearbox's. Now take a Vic-8 or Vic 10.... even a VIC-4 is tons better than the 5 is. To me the 5 has always been an excuse for a projector... while the 4, 8, 9, and 10 were real projectors. I service a location that has several Vic 8's that are 45 years old! Yea, lately its taken a few repairs(contactors) to keep em running but nothing major. Original gear trains and so on have never been touched. I did catch a partially plugged oil galley in one of them a few years back however. Ballantoons... another excuse of a projector. The Ballantoon has too many weak spots in it for general service duty in any multiplex. Also the star and cam ARE NOT hardened and even a simple film pile up that doesn't phase other projectors will break or bend the tip of the Ballantoon star wheel. Another downside... Wrong International has discontinued many parts for it and other machines. Just try to get gate parts such as castings or certain springs, lens mount parts don't exist. Wrong quit making it several years ago because no one wanted it... they did the right thing. Hey... they did do one thing right... as Louis says. Mark  |  IP: Logged Galen Murphy-Fahlgren Master Film Handler Posts: 405 From: Canton, MI, USA Registered: Oct 2007 posted 05-15-2008 01:27 PM                     I have to agree, the V5 sucks. I have three (used to be four) and apart from their propensity to break constantly, it should not be that hard to get a steady image. Sean, perhaps you know some secret that I don't, but if proper belt tension, lubrication, and threading don't do the trick, it's junk. V5s are only good for showing Cloverfield, and why would you want to do that?  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-15-2008 03:42 PM                     OK, guys, let's get some numbers on jitter and weave. No "rocky steady," please. Just numbers. How steady, quantitatively, is your Cinnemecanicca, using RP40? What is the vertical image (un)steadiness as measured in RP40 squares (each RP40 square is 0.004125")? (an RP40 square is just over 0.5% of the 4-perf image height.) Less than 1/10th of a square of movement is pretty good. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Galen Murphy-Fahlgren Master Film Handler Posts: 405 From: Canton, MI, USA Registered: Oct 2007 posted 05-15-2008 04:02 PM                     Well, I would obviously have to measure that, but I can say that my V5s are noticeably less steady than my Christie P35GPs or my Simplex XLs, despite the fact that my V5s occupy 3 of my 4 smallest screens. I could have actual measurements by no earlier than Sunday.  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 05-15-2008 04:27 PM                     quote: Galen Murphy-Fahlgren Well, I would obviously have to measure that I maybe wrong but I think that's exactly what he wants you to do.  |  IP: Logged Michael Moore Expert Film Handler Posts: 188 From: Dover, DE / USA Registered: Jun 2006 posted 05-15-2008 04:31 PM                        I have used Cinnemecanicca, Simplex, and Century; at some point in time and like all of these projectors, and soundheads alike. I can't say either way one is "the bomb" and all projectors fall to ruin in its proverbial wake. In review of others who have posted here, I can fairly say many of you waffle more then a waffle iron, back and forth, “I like it- I don't like it- I like it- I don't like it.” Come on, give me a break! Again, I have to go back to what I have said before, the operator(s) are responsible (greater then 90% of the time) for equipment failure. Remember at a theatre "you" are not the only one there. Remember there will be ones to follow you, and or work with you right now. And everyone is different and treats machines differently, so “you” or they can’t control each other completely. Are there design flaws out their, sure, can any one of us engineer a solution to solve it? ---Most likely, fact is no projector is just the end of all projectors, sure there are you kinoton bitches, as well as Christy sluts out their, who praise these machines as if god crapped them out himself on the 8th day and said let their be perfect projection equipment. Sure there are people who will love Simplex till the day they die, and the machine will still be around long after the casket is closed. And yes, I agree there are little V5 lovers out their just running their mouth how perfect their projectors are. Century punks, Motiographaphiles; the list could go on and on. I have no qualification to be and expert about any machine nor would I ever say I’m an expert, (that’s an ego thing for many). However I can safely assure anyone here that I have used some equipment that I have looked at and said “well why did they do that when they could have done this” or “that is just dumb.” I have also stood back and looked at some stuff and said “wow that works.” Whatever, get over yourselves. I’m tired of these pissing contests: “My sprockets better then yours! My sprockets better then yours!” Just take care of what you have and get the most out of it. Mike  |  IP: Logged

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