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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Your Favourite Projector and Booth (Page 12)

 
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Author Topic: Your Favourite Projector and Booth
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 08-20-2006 06:36 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The key to minimizing the perception of flicker and to maximize the amount of light throughput is reduce the transition time between open and closed. Furthermore the interruptions must be periodic and equally spaced (you can't have a wide and a narrow blade).

So going with that...the single shutter wins as the superior method. The single shutter is twice as fast as an equivalently sized double shutter. This allows a greater open time and more light. Since the speed of the blade is double that of a double wing, it also has less perceivable flicker.

The double shutter and the barrel shutter are also trying to increase the shutter speed by having the top bottom of the aperture close at the same time. The flaw of the barrel and double shutter is that it inherently creates a brighter center image.

With the typical double shutter like on a Century, one also has the slop factor of each mating gear. As such, the two blades will bounce with respect to each other...this will create a visible flicker on the screen as the middle of the image opens and closes in a different part of the frame. If you have a Century double shutter machine...look at the line that is created by the light in the spot sight box (where the two blades come together). If you have a new set of gears, light-weight shutters and everything is set just right...the line will move a very small amount but violently...this will appear as a rapid flicker on the screen. Now if you have an older set of gears with heavy blades such that the two blades bounce with respect to each other...it will look like a wandering arc on screen.

So given the shutter technologies you listed, the single blade large shutter is the best....the small bow-tie blade is the worst.

Then there are the 3-wingers...while they do not have the light output (half that of an equivalent 2-wing blade), they do have the least flicker and often have the appearance of a sharper image.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 08-21-2006 05:31 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
So given the shutter technologies you listed, the single blade large shutter is the best....the small bow-tie blade is the worst.

Then there are the 3-wingers...while they do not have the light output (half that of an equivalent 2-wing blade), they do have the least flicker and often have the appearance of a sharper image.
Thx, Steve for all of this - greatly appreciated for this info and your time.

Then, may I continue with the statements above: We can safely say that the Century large 2-wing shutter (even though it's quite the distance from the aperture) and the Simplex conical shutter (which is much closer to the aperture) are the two best shutter designs for light/flicker efficency.

..and given, the Christie 35 with the bow-tie .. would then, the P35 with the single blade fall into this catagory .. as the worst?

..and the same with 16mm using the 3-wing shutters (or, like the earler Bell & Howells with the single blade shutter that swung around three times while in the third pass is when the shuttle pulls the film down in the trap) - giving sharp images, but with slightly lesser light.

Now, another question has to come out of this: With your factual definitions of the barrel (dissolving) shutters and the limitations of this form of shutter, why, or I should say how does the European models makes the barrel shutter more effective (or do they.?)

thx-Monte

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Bernard Tonks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England
Registered: Apr 2001

- posted 08-21-2006 09:13 AM      Profile for Bernard Tonks   Email Bernard Tonks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Bernard Tonks
The Independent Camden Parkway, (ex Gaumont / Odeon) following closure for 3 years, was taken back by Odeon, and is now a five screen multiplex.
quote: Cameron Glendinning
I worked there in its final year, It was a 1100 seat (from memory) with a 60ft screen and probably the best sound I think I ever heard! personally lined up by Dion at Dolby. The second screen was 110 seat with 2 sets of curtains, in what was formerly a resturant. There was also the remains of a projectionist training school! It was a beautiful theatre. 70mm prints everywhere.

Just curious to know what remains? Was the main carved up into 4? Is the wonderful Art Deco foyer still intact?
Can’t really help you with that now. I would think it was likely that the main auditorium was split into 4 screens. I would hope they have left the wonderful Art Deco foyer intact. I also remember the very attractive Art Deco created 2nd screen with two sets of curtains, but was spoilt with the most dreadful sightlines. No doubt Odeon would have corrected this.

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

- posted 08-21-2006 09:20 AM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Kinoton and Christie with the single blade working at double speed ( pulldown and one flicker per frame ) in theory should be very efficient.
Since the early 1990's ( 1993 ) there have been no barrel shutters on newer models of European projectors. They generally had a lamphouse with a reflector with a vey long F2 focus so the cone of light would pass through efficiently through a barrel shutter. Some portables and one Chinese manufacturer are still producing barrel shutter machines, and possibly one Indian manufacturer if he is still producing an early Bauer projector copy.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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- posted 08-21-2006 04:42 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Doesn't the Wassman and veronese machines still have a barrel shutter

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Richard Fowler
Film God

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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
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- posted 08-21-2006 05:06 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Touche ce!! [Cool] I forgot about Elementos ( Wassman ) which promotes Ernemann and Veronese / SAX / Cinemec....but their total production compared to Kinoton - Ernemann - Cinemeccanica - Proyecson is another story [Wink] .

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Sverrir D. Thorarinsson
Film Handler

Posts: 13
From: Selfoss, Iceland
Registered: Sep 2005

- posted 07-16-2007 06:30 PM      Profile for Sverrir D. Thorarinsson   Email Sverrir D. Thorarinsson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I thought Iceland was all converted to Digital or mostly digital....?
Currently, only one cinema here in Iceland is equipped with digital projectors and that's "Kringlubio". It's equipped with both digital and 35mm projectors from Cinemeccanica in all three auditoriums.

Regarding the question of this topic, I have only worked on Vic5 so I'm not able to say what projector I like the most. I've seen the Kinotons and they look interesting mostly because of how quiet they seem to be. I think it was the FP30. On the other hand, I'm happy with the Vic5 because of the simplicity, reliability and how easy it is to get parts for it.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 07-16-2007 06:51 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Then there are the 3-wingers...while they do not have the light output (half that of an equivalent 2-wing blade), they do have the least flicker and often have the appearance of a sharper image.
You can get that same "extra sharpness effect" by installing a high speed movement in an X-L. There is very definately much more sharpness than with a regular speed movement. No one here has ever been able to explain why this is.....

Mark

quote: Gordon McLeod
Doesn't the Wassman and veronese machines still have a barrel shutter
Yea, like those are being installed in world wide locations [Roll Eyes] .

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 07-16-2007 09:38 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It should look sharper because the film has come to a more complete stop in the gate before the shutter opens...Kinoton has increased the speed of their electronic intermittent 4-5 times over their standard electronic intermittent and claim that they too now see more resolution.

Steve

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David Graham Rose
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 187
From: Cambridge, UK
Registered: Sep 2002

- posted 07-17-2007 01:57 PM      Profile for David Graham Rose   Email David Graham Rose   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quote Bernard Tonks;

Can’t really help you with that now. I would think it was likely that the main auditorium was split into 4 screens. I would hope they have left the wonderful Art Deco foyer intact. I also remember the very attractive Art Deco created 2nd screen with two sets of curtains, but was spoilt with the most dreadful sightlines. No doubt Odeon would have corrected this.

Greetings All

Ref Odeon Camden Town, 14 Parkway NW1 7AA

The "man" Parkway cinema was converted as Bernard rightly says into 4 auditoria. A drop wall was placed in the front of the auditorium creatind a rather wide theatre (10 rear surrounds; 3 each side). A new projection room was built about half way down the original auditorium. The rear section was split ino 3 theatres side by side. There were two 90-odd seat theatres on the outer edges, and a 240- ish seat cinema in the middle. The original projection suite served the rear three theatre.

The former restaurant/ screen 2 was converted into Odeon 5, with it's separate projection suite.

Screens 1, 3 and 5 has tableaux curtains whilst screens 2 & 4 had festoons. All screens were equipped with Dolby Dig CP500's. Auds 2-5 had the flimsy Victoria 5, and Odeon 1 had a Vicoria 8.

The picture quality in Odeon 1 was nothing to write home about on account of the installation company putting in dodgy second hand equipment, and vastly underpowering the light in Odeon 1. (1997- SuperZenith 450L? what's going on?)

The General Manager who reopened this theatre was George Rait (now at Odeon Kensington) assisted by Michael Armstrong, Sarah Donnelly and Paul Clements. The projectionists were Stephen Larn (Chief), Simon Munday (Senior) and Gordon Elliott (Senior).

From Cambridge,

Goodnight

David

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

- posted 07-18-2007 09:34 AM      Profile for Cameron Glendinning   Email Cameron Glendinning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thankyou David

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 07-18-2007 10:08 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
It should look sharper because the film has come to a more complete stop in the gate before the shutter opens...Kinoton has increased the speed of their electronic intermittent 4-5 times over their standard electronic intermittent and claim that they too now see more resolution.
I agree thats got to be what it is. I knew I wasn't seeing an illusion nor were my customers although no one could really explain it. The difference is easiest to see when running white titles on a black background. The titles become very sharp with the HS movement.

Mark

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 07-19-2007 03:39 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What would it take to convert a standard XL to a hi-speed XL outside of using the variable blade shutter?

I service a DrIn that has a PR-1014 sitting on a "4-star" soundhead, hanging out in front of a CFS-4500 console. Granted with the light beam being bent 90 degrees as it is from reflecting off that angled mirror before heading out through the machine creating some loss of light, the XL has the variable blade shutter (opened all the way) with a standard INT assembly.

Would a Hi-Speed INT assembly do this screen justice, or just call it as it is with the present setup of the shutter being opened all the way?

thx for the help on this one. - Monte

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
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- posted 07-19-2007 10:33 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Monte L Fullmer
Would a Hi-Speed INT assembly do this screen justice, or just call it as it is with the present setup of the shutter being opened all the way?
I always got at least 25% more light on the screen but optics also introduce a limiting factor... some of the D.I.'s that I put them into had pictures very close to indoor light levels when running a HS movement. The problem is finding even just one today. Wolk used to have a bunch of them but I don't know if they still do or not. Another route that also works... the Technilight Kit at about 2500.00 plus labor, thats double but stop to consider that a good HS movment will run you a grand and if you pile it up its usually NOT repairable. All the ones I installed are still running just fine, over 10 years now. Estar made the use of them possible again... they tended to shred acetate especially if its dried out.

Mark

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

- posted 07-19-2007 10:44 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a copule of used (?) high speed movements.

BUT:

I would get a lamphouse that has an appropriate amount of light and new good lenses first before I would introduce a new level of complexity to this theatre. (I know they can afford it.....how many decades have they been in business?) Louis

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