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Author Topic: Questions about unions
Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-25-2001 08:00 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What got me was when IATSE 173 was locked out a few years ago by Cineplex Odeon members of the IASTE camera local cross picklines to view dailies in a theatre ( and 173 had never in its 75 year history ever had a labour dispute or was subject to feather bedding)
Also the Secondary teachers union bussed kids to screenings at picket theatres over theatres running the same film that contracts were still in force at
leave a bad taste

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 09-25-2001 08:02 PM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joe if you only knew...
im not gonna state my opinion of unions on here email and ill explain.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 09-25-2001 08:11 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No! YOU e-mail ME!

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-25-2001 08:28 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow. Not that I'm in a position to, but if I were, I don't think I'd want to join a union. I just want to do my job and be good at it. I don't want someone else's compaining about their jobs to affect my job. Or am I not understanding how it works?

Also, I don't expect to get paid $20 an hour to thread a few machines, press start, and sit around the rest of the time. I want to be a real projectionst. The best I can. It sounds to me like some people have had bad impressions of union projectionists because they got away with doing very little. I don't know if that's the case, but that's not the way I would be.

So do any circuits have "real projectionists" that aren't union?

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-26-2001 01:12 AM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken, I expect you will get flamed severly for that last post. Guys, go easy on him .

What you have to understand is what it was like when unions started. The average workday was 12 hours. The average workweek was 6 days. Sometimes, people were forced to work 'swing shifts,' in other words work 24 hours straight. Since government would take no regulatory action in these matters, workers had to organize to be able to negotiate better conditions-collective bargaining. Needless to say, the factory managers were not keen on this idea. Armed thugs and many times the police would come in and 'break a few skulls' with clubs to disperse picketers. Many times the national gaurd was even called out and fired upon the picketers. Death was not an uncommon thing on the picket lines. This was the struggle for workers rights in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Now enter the projectionist union. I am not certain how and when it started, I'll let someone else fill in those details. Naturally early projectionists did not have to contend with 'swing shifts,' but I imagine the hours could be atrocious. To understand the working conditions, you must understand how film was shown back then. There were no platters, all movies were shown on a change over system. There were no xenon bulbs, light was provided by carbon rods that had to be changed after every reel. Most importantly, the film had a different chemical composistion than modern film. This film-Nitrate film to be exact-was highly combustable. If the projector stopped or jammed with the film in front of the light for just an instant it could burst into flames. Nitrate film is self-combusting, it does not need oxygen to burn since it gives off oxygen as a byproduct of combustion. This made any nitrate film fire very dangerous.

SO all those factors meant that the projectionist had to be in the booth all the time. Can you imagine being in a little box not much bigger than what was needed to fit in all the equipment for 10 hours with no air conditioning? Thus, the projectionist union.

For many years things were good in unionland. Running projectors back then was not an easy task. One had to be an expert in mechanical and electrical matters, being able to do repairs on a daily basis. And then something terrible happened, TV. When TV became big in the 50's, theatres saw their attendance drop by 50%. The golden age of movies was over. Thus began the 'decline.' I don't know too much about this and what I do know is second hand, but relations between owners and the union declined steadily. When automation and platters came about, it spelled doom for the union. When owners realized they could 'get by' paying a guy $3 an hour to do the job of a $20 an hour union guy, the union was dumped.

Who's fault the souring of relations and ultimate split was will depend on who you ask. I will not comment since I have no personal experience to relate and there are plenty of people here who do.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-26-2001 07:20 AM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dustin said <Ken, I expect you will get flamed severly for that last post>. OK, looking back I guess I can see why. Guys, understand that I am not saying anything bad myself about the unions. I am just trying to understand how they work. I don't know anything about them.

I assume that the issues with theatres getting fined for having non-union operators only exist in areas where there still is a projection union?

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-26-2001 09:07 AM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When a theatre agrees to have union operators, they normaly sign a contract to that effect. Hiring non-union booth people is hence a violation of that contract.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-26-2001 09:30 AM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, now I get it. How long do the contracts last before they need to be renewed, or is each location different?

So if theatres signed contracts to have union-operated booths, they obviously wanted it that way for some reason, right? Why now do most of them not want that?

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 09-26-2001 09:42 AM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They signed the contracts because they had to. At the time, the unions were the only organization that trained projectionists. Projection was a career at that time and you could not learn to thread a film in an afternoon and expect to get by. If the theatres had not signed the contracts the unions would go on strike and the shows would not run.

All that changed when platters and automation came about. Once unions could no longer threaten a strike without being replaced, well, that was the beginning of the end.

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-26-2001 04:39 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gordon, you wrote
<<Also the secondary teachers union bussed kids to screenings at picketted theatres, over theatres running the same films that
contracts were still in force at...>>
I just received an email detailing hostility from "educators"
during the U.A. lockout in California some years ago.
I'm inclined to think these groups were not unions, but NEA groups.
The National Education Association is the largest such group in the U.S., but it is NOT a union! Since it includes supervisors (principals,school boards and other supervisory and administrative personnel) it cannot engage in real collective bargaining and has been hostile to unions for a long time. Union members call it a "company union." The NEA calls itself an Association, and is careful to avoid the term "union", which is a distinction observed by
US labor legislation.
The American Federation of Teachers (AFT) is an AFL-CIO UNION. Its state divisions and municipal locals fought for and won organizing and collective bargaining rights through long and costly strikes.
In New York City, the local, The United Federation of Teachers (UFT)
has bailed New York City out of near bankruptcy, along with other
municipal unions. And last week, after the terrorist attack disaster, it once again pledged huge sums from its pension plan for disaster relief and reconstruction. [This is only one small evidence
of how the hard-won right to organize into unions has helped build
our economy, our high standards of living, and the rise of the working middle class.]
I do not think it was members of a teachers' UNION who crossed your picket lines.
--Gerard

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-26-2001 04:49 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It was memebers of the teachers union not there association
Also in Oshawa a GM car town the autoworkers would regularly cross picket lines

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 09-26-2001 04:53 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I do think that Labor Unions are good. Just look at why they came into existance in this country in the first place!

IATSE can be a an excellent way of insuring qualified technicians in the booth, excellent source for apprenticeship programs, insuring honest wages and benefits, etc.

On the other hand, IATSE members (and any union for that matter) must be willing to do an honest days work for these type of wages!

Century Theaters has a relatively new theater in Chicago. Now Century Theaters is definately anti union, but I did hear that they were going to try and negotiate with IATSE. IATSE refused to negotiate so Century gave up and went with non union projectionists. Anyone know/hear about this?

In my previous post, I forgot to add that IATSE did strike in Tucson in the late 1970s-early 1980's. Some walked off the job. The only reason some screens did not go dark was because 1 IATSE member left the Union and went to work directly for the theater company. He trained the nonunion kids, and the theaters were prepared for the union strike!

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 09-26-2001 11:27 PM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Projection isn't a bust ass job even with 20 minute reels and carbons.I know , I've done it. Ran every film for 4 months. Hardest part was staying awake and finding enough reading material. An acquaintance who was union in NYC said once that anybody who tried to open a non union theatre there would probably find it on fire shortly after opening.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-27-2001 08:03 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that's why many people have bad impressions about unions. If they want to strike because of whatever reason, fine. but if somebody else wants to open a non-union theatre, why can they just let them do their job?

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-27-2001 08:48 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ken:
You ask, <<If soneone wants to open a non-union theatre, why can't they just let them do their job?>>
Let me preface my answer by saying we have literally hundreds of Local 306 (NYC) men and women now retired and living in Florida on pensions earned working union in New York. They constiture our Retired Group, living in homes bought with wages and pensions, some in retirement communities, and some vacationing in a hotel in Miami operated by the International Alliance of Theatrical and Stage Employees (IATSE, our parent union.)
They write back to us horror stories about seeing projection operators in Florida earning little above minimum wage, and less per hour than the price of a single movie ticket!
If we allow theatres to pay Burger King wages, all theatres will want such cheap employees. Who would support our families, send our kids to college, and provide for our old age in beautiful states like yours (or even our own)?
I hope when Florida political, social and economic conditions improve, someday your projectionists will be able to enjoy the standards of living we have worked so hard to achieve, and maybe be able to retire in, or vacation in, a fine hotel a state of your choice, including Florida and New York. (Unions are a first step!)
Gerard

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