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Author Topic: Questions about unions
Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-30-2001 02:24 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, you make some good points. However, the vertical integration of today is different than that of yesteryear. A multiplex might be related to a production arm, but there is a wall between them. A multiplex might play product from that arm, but it also has to play the product of other distributors, and any difference in quality of presentatin would have those competitors yelling "Foul!" The focus of the owners/CEOs today tend more towards satisfying the board and stockholders than building their personal image and egos. This wasn't the case in the iron-fisted control of the past.

Gas stations are an odd situation. Gas stations were a natural for self-service once the safety issues were substantially addressed. Most guys can figure out that a nozzle has to fit into a hole before good things can happen.

Restaurants are sometimes vertically integrated. We have a Burger King near us that is a company store, and the headquarters are not that far away. The service and cleanliness is much better than many of the franchise stores. It isn't always the case, but sometimes vertical integration does work, even in today's environment.

I agree in principle that there is a need for unions, but I have problems that neither companies nor unions seem to admit much responsibility to the customer, especially when under duress. It seems to me that in the inevitable squabbles between union and management, the odd man out is often the customer, who suffers disruption of services, taunts from crossing picket lines, poor quality or even sabotaged products, and surly attitudes by both management and union. In extreme cases, the government sometimes has to step in and operate as ombudsman for the customer and general public, which is not a particularly good situation for anyone. These are the hazards and pitfalls of our society. They aren't pretty , but I guess the system works better than the socialism of France and some other countries.

I still think that it takes someone with both an overview of the situation and the ability to make changes to make any line of production work to provide the best possible product.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-30-2001 08:43 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jerry said"They aren't pretty , but I guess the system works better than the socialism of France and some other countries."
Since neither you nor I live there I wouldn't critise there society as obviously they choose to maintain it, in a democratic nation

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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 10-01-2001 02:34 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"I guess" means just exactly what it says. I do read the tf1.fr/news fairly regularly (yes, I can read a smattering of French), and I do believe in getting news from a variety of independent sources to check for bias. (Unfortunately the website changed for the worse a few months back and now has far less news than before.) My guess was based on the reports within that news feed of road blockages by striking farmers, and various reports of disruptions by one group or another attempting to make their cause known. It is entirely possible that this is hype by the French news media. C'est la vie.



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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 10-01-2001 11:35 PM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
About 12 or so years ago my 2 collegues in the booth and I were pretty P.O.ed with the owner at that time. I made contact with somebody with the union to find out what our position would be if we joined. The gist of the discussion was that if we joined and the owner signed a contract, as new members with zero seniority, we would be put on the on-call list and the most senior member needing a position would be sent to the theatre. While this certainly makes sense to the union members, it would have been stupid for us to put ourselves out of a job. Under those circumstances we declined and worked out our differences with the owner ourselves. Without the seniority issue we would have joined.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-02-2001 07:46 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well up here in Socialist Canada when the Union signs up the theatre the people working there come in with 0 senority BUT it is still there job and at that job they would have the highest senority so if layoffs occur then it would be by the rule first in last out.
And I think that is fairly common all over as I know that the IA is organizing a lot of shops and that is one of the requirements that they must meet is the people on the job stay on the job

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 10-02-2001 04:24 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I am a person who cherishes competitency above senority and politics!

I have seen one too many occasions where the most undesireable person is retained--or in a position of authority simply because of senority or an ability to kiss up to da bosses. High senority people tend to think that they are untouchable because of senority--and it has also been my experience that these type of people also get very lazy and detrimental to quality job performance because senority makes them untouchable! I have also seen the most incompetitent and stupid people get promoted simply because they know how to kiss-up!

I have had the pleasure of working with people who are anything but PC! The majority of these people have a high level of ethics and are very straight forward and blunt--but honest. Unfortunately, many of them have failed to be promoted simply because playing politics and kissing up is more important than competitence!

As far as IATSE is concerned: one common complaint that I have heard from theater owners revolves around print deliveries. Shipper drops prints off at the box office. IATSE projectionists would not go to box office to get prints. Instead they would wait for theater floor personnel to deliver prints to the booth door, and projectionists would crack open the booth door, grab prints and slam door in theater personnels faces! If floor personnel failed to bring prints to the booth door, then the print would not be built and would not open on its appointed day ie Friday--an this supposedly happened many times!

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-02-2001 04:53 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Up here we carry the prints to the booth including the Imax cases

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 10-03-2001 02:01 AM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is also common to have floorstaff do print moves.

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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99


 - posted 10-03-2001 03:04 AM      Profile for Jim Ziegler   Email Jim Ziegler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I despise unions... I have a good reason, but since charges are still pending, I can't really discuss it...


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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-03-2001 09:57 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Will:
I don't think projectionists should carry prints from the lobby
to the booth, and I'm glad the IATSE forbad it during my projectionist years. I once ran a 70mm print with a shipping weight of 1200 lbs. At the RKO Keith theatre in Flushing, NY (since demolished) the original booth was up a staircase of 97 steps through two balconies. At a theatre on 42nd St. the operator had to climb a rusty ladder up through a trapdoor into the booth, then help the porter raise the print by pulling on the rope of the block & tackle,
a sort of compromise.
Unless we breed a generation of projectionists the way the Japanese, normally short of stature, create 350 lb sumo champs, or the French,who create a beefy class of cow-carcass-carriers for Les Halles, I can't see wearing out your craftsmen/women with brutal labor even before they begin their precision work. I've had two hernia surgeries and am due for a third, even without having to carry
canned film prints.
Too little consideration is given in retrofitting old theaters
into cinemas, and even in designing new theatres, to the efficient
delivery of films to the booth, and too few managements develope
reliable and efficient delivery systems utilizing their personnel.
Gerard

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 10-03-2001 10:14 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gerard said: "I once ran a 70mm print with a shipping weight of 1200 lbs."

70mm print film weighs about 10 pounds per 1000 feet. So a three hour 70mm print running 112.5 feet per minute weighs about 200 pounds.

I agree that a 70mm print might FEEL like it weighs 1200 lbs.


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-03-2001 10:39 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John:
I'm citing the shipper's label for the rectangular metal cans
containing the steel reels containing the 70mm film.I don't recall the
title,but it was about the year we ran Schindler's List,so that might
have been it. I think the print was contained in eight cans, each
holding a reel resembling a 6,000' 35mm reel in design.
Four ushers carried up the square cans, but they must have needed
more than one trip. [Did those cans also contain a back-up print?]
Gerard

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Will Kutler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1506
From: Tucson, AZ, USA
Registered: Feb 2001


 - posted 10-03-2001 10:53 PM      Profile for Will Kutler   Email Will Kutler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is only one theater in So AZ using IATSE projectionists, and that is the DeAnza Drive in.

He told me the following. 4screens 8 shows a night 6 days a week. Sound broadcast over FM radio. Anything over 7hrs per night=overtime. Build ups and tear downs are seperate extra fees. Overtime projector maintenance is seperate fees. Gets paid for dry runs if necessary. Full benefits, medical/dental/glasses, and retirement.

I was responsible for 10 screens per day in a all THX all digital 20 plex running no less than 30 shows during a 6-8hr shift. I described my daily responsibilities in "Shit Hot Presentation".

The fact is that I was responsible for much much more than the IATSE guys, and my salary/benefits came no where near matching theirs! Keep in mind that I was a projectionist at this theater and that I never worked the floor! And ya, I know what it is like to schlepp prints around!

Personally, I feel that if a person is going to collect those type of wages, then they better be willing to be a team player and do a little extra to help out, and not hide behind what they will and will not do as per Union Contract. Ya, there were several times when I helped clean auditoriums between shows--if I could spare the time--because floor staff was short handed. And there were several times when floor staff helped me out schlepping and moving prints. One hand helps the other to make a successful presentation. I know that there are IATSE projectionists out there who are older guys who might have trouble lugging stuff around. So be polite and ask for help--hell, are they totally incapasatated? With these type of wages, the excuse of prints not being built because floor staff did not deliver to the booth is BS! Why can a IATSE guy not go downstairs, see if prints were delivered, and ask for help in getting them up to the booth?

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 10-03-2001 11:06 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Will:
I'd say the working conditions you describe, that you had to put up with, constitute the best reason for forming and joining a union!
Gerard

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Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 10-03-2001 11:56 PM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In a modern projection booth with properly spaced showtimes there is no reason one person cannot run 10 screens-assuming no build up/tear down has to be done. Anything more is a waste of money, period.

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