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Author Topic: Questions about unions
Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-27-2001 09:28 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think I understand. That would definitely seem to be an advantage to the union. But why can't being a projectionist be like other jobs where the projectionist works for the theatre company and gets paid a decent wage, even if no union is involved?

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-27-2001 10:17 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
GREED!
Have you noticed it takes armored trucks to haul the box-office receipts to the bank after weekends? The bottom line of the theatre chains is to pay the stockholders, and to sell more shares to build
megaplexes that obsolete their multiplexes, which killed the single screens. They build megas across the street from megas, and this building frenzy has forced five chains to file for bankruptcy in the past two years. So they rely heavily on teenage and immigrant labor,
part-timers for the most part, so they don't have to bother with pension plans or medical insurance. The kids handle huge sums of cash at the box office and refreshment stands selling carbonated, colored sugar water and popcorn that is cheaper than sand,
for big bucks. Young part-timers are happy to get their first jobs,
and immigrants, toe-holds in the free world, and don't think of retirement or demand a fair return on their labor from the flow of cash to the companies.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-27-2001 10:44 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So was it always like this? (I'm talking about outside the unions)

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-27-2001 10:53 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dustin Mitchell answered this pretty well on page 2 of this thread.

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-27-2001 11:40 PM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
OK. But he's talking about the early part of the century. I remember my history classes. Working conditions back then left much to be desired. What about when things became a little more civilized. Did there come a point where there was just no such thing as a professional projectionist outside the union?

Instead of going back and forth on this thread, do you perhaps know of any place where I can read a really good thourough history of the industry?

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 09-28-2001 12:24 AM      Profile for Sean McKinnon   Author's Homepage   Email Sean McKinnon   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The ignorance of the amount of money it costs to run a building always amazes me. Theatres dont have electric bills, water bills, leases, payroll, heating, night time cleaners, maintenance costs, stupid law suits, advertising, insurance or anything that costs money. The theatre also gets to keep 100% of the box office, and they dont have to buy the stock to sell at the stand. Theatres make 100% profit.
I wish that were the case.

But unfortunately it is not.
There is a LOT of overhead in theatres, much more so than other businesses.

------------------
--Sean McKinnon
Manager
Loews Cineplex Entertainment
Liberty Tree Mall 20
Danvers, Mass
www.enjoytheshow.com

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Ken Lackner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1907
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-28-2001 11:18 AM      Profile for Ken Lackner   Email Ken Lackner   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sean,

So are you saying you agree with not having union operators?

After reading this thread, I am definitely starting to see both sides of the coin. Thanks, guys.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-28-2001 08:59 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sean I gather that you don't like unions.
Out of curiosity how much do you make a year and is this a lifetime job for you?
This is a skilled proffesion and anyone who thinks otherwise really shouldn't be working in a booth.
In many years of serviceing theatres in except for a couple of instances I have had
1 less nuscance calls from union booth
2 less negligent equipment damage in union booths
3 less complaints of presentation and film damage
4 an almost no questionable warranty problems in union booths
When I quote a theatre the price they pay will be very dependent on taking all that into consideration and in some cases may decide if we even bother to quote it
In some areas they may have been abuses of the system but in my area I have seen very few and I believe my experiences are far longer and more varried

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-28-2001 09:11 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
All businesses have overhead of some sort...some more apparent than others.

As to this industry, it is pathetic that there is no incentive for putting on a good presentation. Theatres can not make money by showing the movie...as such why should they put anything extra into showing it? Check any study and you will find that the bulk of the movie goers will go to the closest theatre playing the film they want to see, regardless of presentation quality. After deciding on the film, then such things as cup-holders and stadium seating (or not) are considered.

Overall presenatation just doesn't seem to be a measurable thing. Now that said, the theatre I work, the Uptown, seems to out gross all the theatres in the area on any given title despite not having any parking and not being close to the vast majority of it's patrons. It is a huge single screen house (another anomoly these days) and sloped floor on the lower level, stadium in the balcony. The only explanation for it doing so much better than the competition has to be attributed to perceived presenatation...that is...the huge Cinerama screen with curtains and digital sound...plus the atmosphere of going to an old showplace. Oh and as far as the theatre chain (LCE) goes, it is the only theatre that has full-time union operators for the entire day, every day. This theatre has never lost money, to the best of my knowledge. Why? It sure doesn't fit the mold of today's ideal cinema model. Today's theatres and business plans have landed all the big chains in bankruptcy. In fact, the only time when the movie industry was a thriving business that didn't compete for mediocraty is when this type of theatre was the norm. Again, the only thing it has going for it, really, is a perceived presentation by uneductated consumers (lets face it, most movie goers already think we run the films off of tape or DVD). They have no idea what it takes to put on a show.

The industry and the world in general would be a better place if there were fewer screens and those that were left were very high quality so that going out to the movies was something special to be looked forward too. To me, the idea of having a business where the main purpose (showing the movie) is perverted into selling the food as a means of survival is just plain stupid and inherently doomed. This is not all the exhibitor's fault but certainly partly theirs, from an historical standpoint. They will always offer to take a little less to get their product (look at the absurd agreements entered into when Star Wars EP 1 came out, what idiots). The studios are certainly not clear here either, they want too much so that the exhibitor can make a profit by just showing the movie nor do they insist on their product being shown and kept well....just think what would happen if exhibitors were held liable for the quality of the shows (and prints). So, in a sense, the studios could drive the quality of the cinema market.

I will end this little diatribe with...if you can't afford to have someone whose sole responsibility is to maintain the quality of the show (the PROJECTIONIST) then you really can't afford to be in business, the industry as a whole would be better off without your theatre. We need quality, not quantity. The union badge isn't a requirement but it sometimes helps or sometimes hurts. To anyone that thinks that what started the labor movement, unions, is now outdated...you are quite mistaken...as long as employers will try and get the most out of an employee while paying the least exists (that will be forever) unions will be needed to offset that situation...the key is to strike a balance...neither should be absolutely powerful.

Steve

------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"


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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 09-29-2001 07:23 AM      Profile for Bill Enos   Email Bill Enos   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mr. Cohen, if your local has an office staff, to what union do they belong? Surely they do, and certainly they are very well paid as whatever they asked for would be granted because of they vast flow of money from dues, pension plans investments etc. and likewise they would never strike because their wishes would be granted just as the members would like theirs because a union would not be GREEDY when it comes to salaries and benefits for its' own employees.


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 09-29-2001 10:03 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, I agree with most of your assessment, but I also note that prior to the breakup, the studios and moguls ran all the major individual theatres, with a very few exceptions. That meant that there were both financial and ego incentives for proper presentation. If the Fox house showed a shitty presentation and the Paramount didn't, the effects were seen on the bottom line, as well as in the reputation of the owner of the studio among his peers.

The breakup of exhibition and production was a primary factor in the lowering of standards... IF you hold that the unions of the time were the guardians of the standards, which I sometimes question. Until this, Paramount et al COULDN'T remove the union from the theatres without a backlash from the union personnel involved in production. If there was a single factor that allowed for the "busting" of the union, this breakup was it.

I've said it before, and I still believe it, the mega and multiplexes need to rent particular auditoriums *by the year* to the various distributors, and those auditoriums need to be clearly labeled with corporate logos. The only way the players in the industry will admit to any responsibility is if they have a responsibility from conception to presentation. Long term leases provide the theatre owner with a guaranteed income, and studios quickly have to adapt to providing quality product throughout the year to pay the rent, and insuring presentation quality at "their" auditoriums.

The problem of lower standards has less to do with the faults of any individual or group within the system than it does with the lack of an oversight or responsibility for the gestalt. Look at this simplified line:

Concept > Film stock > Production > Duplication > Distribution > Transport > Exhibition.

Each stage now represents a different company trying to suck out maximum profits from their share of the pie. Maximum profits inherently means that there is a balancing point of profits vs. quality. Unlike the publishing industry, where the major construction of the end product (book) has multiple complete paths to the consumer, movies must all pass through certain bottlenecks, which tends to homogenize the quality. I can pick up a book that is a poorly constructed romance paperback, or I can buy a high-end book that has stunning art and high quality paper and binding. If, OTOH, I look for a variation in movies, I get to see "Lawrence of Arabia" on the same spotted screen that showed "Freddie Got Fingered," while sitting in the same dirty seats, and having to deal with the same poor print inspection. The exhibition model is flawed, and it is a wonder that it held up as well as it did over the last fifty years.


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Don Sneed
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Texas City, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 09-29-2001 10:30 AM      Profile for Don Sneed   Author's Homepage   Email Don Sneed   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with Gordon, when I 1st became a projestionist it was with local union 279 in Houston Tx, I was 17, a jr. in high school, minium wage was $.95 an hr. I was make $3.50 an hr. BUT, I had to maintain the booth equiptment except lamp & sound....the techs back then was call "Soundman" & that just what they were, the union projectionist did all projector repairs, we didn't call the "soundman" for anything except a sound problem, in mid 70's & early 80's when 6,& 8 screens theatres started to pop up, the union projectionist installed the projrctors, assemble the platters ect, the soundman wired it all, the projectionist even filed the aperture plate, they were very professional in the craft & still are in the theatres that still have union operators....but now that most of the projectionist union are gone or being replace, I find the I'm no longer a "soundman", I'm the hold kit & kabudle, from uncrating the consoles, installing the sound, & fileing aperture plates..I even have to plug in a platter on saturday night due to the kids, running the booth just don't care as the union men did, Now I'm not saying all booths is like that, but for those of us who service union booths & non union booths, there is a major difference in the up keep of the equipment and less service calls to the projectors....I was proud to be a union projectionist and to carry a union union card....

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 09-29-2001 03:57 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unions are not perfect but nor the alternate options
In fact we have in Toronto a circuit that pays more for there projectionists than any of the current union contracts and yes they expect performance from them

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Gerard S. Cohen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 975
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 09-29-2001 06:29 PM      Profile for Gerard S. Cohen   Email Gerard S. Cohen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill Enos:
You ask very pertinent questions and I hope your suppositions are correct. The office is closed for the weekend (though every manager has the business agent's number in case of an emergency,
when he or she can get assistance or a replacement projectionist 24 hours a day.) But I hope to contact one of the very few remaining
permanent office workers and let you know what I find out.
The office has once again moved to new quarters, and each time smaller ones. We used to hold meetings in theatres or auditoriums when the membership was larger, but in recent years the small office meeting room was big enough. The real estate situation in midtown Manhatten is tight and expensive, and since Sept. 11th, impossible!
Each time the office is moved, it is to a smaller suite, but the off-duty projectionists pitch in as volunteer movers, carpenters, electricians,painters, etc. (A number also hold licenses in crafts other than projection, and may belong to other craft unions.) That's to conserve union funds from dues as far as possible. Pension funds cannot be touched for anything but.
Pension payments are handled by a pension fund corporation, not by the union.
The office staff also relies on member volunteers for routine
services such as printing ballots, newsletters etc. and assists the
(less than a handful) professional office staff when off duty or between jobs. The local has a large replacement list who shape up
to claim work for those sick, on vacation, maternity/paternity leave,
jury duty, etc., as well as emergency work. Some prefer to "work the list" rather than be tied to a permanent theatre job for the flexibility it offers. But even those with permanent jobs can claim
a better one on the basis of seniority, as jobs open up. There is
also an Audio/Visual list for those who prefer working medical seminars, business conventions, etc by showing slides, projection TV,
or 16mm. And of course an Installation List of those proven qualified
to undertake installation or upgrading of booths.
Gerard

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 09-30-2001 12:43 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>"The breakup of exhibition and production was a primary factor in the lowering of standards... "<<

Jerry, I don't agree with you here though I will agree that it was a factor in production losing interest in exhibition. Quality was high in yesteryear because it was simply expected by the public...remember what one got at the filling station? You got a car wash, oil checked tires checked...and gas pumped...now we all think we are so thrifty by pumping it ourselves (nevermind that in NJ they still pump your gas for the same prices as self-serve in other areas).

Look at our industry today...Redstone owns Paramount and National Amusements (aka Showcase and Multiplex cinemas)...I don't see them having the ultimate standard of presentation, not even for Paramount product...Sony had their fingers in Loews, Cineplex while owning Columbia and Tri-Star...there are still the studio connections.

Before we even get to the theatres...the quality of the prints are just god awful. They contact print the intermediate stage to ensure maximum image unsteadiness. The whole poorly thoughtout polyester thing is another presentation loser as it seems to have made both film slitting and perforating more difficult and less uniform (and don't get me started on the absolutely dumb cyan track thingy) It's like they dumb down the film before the public gets to see it. Ever seen an EK print? I recently did a premier with one EK print and one release print...the difference is more than night and day...it is quality and trash.

As to the unions...I put them in 4 categories of evolution in this industry...there was the charter members....these were the guys that had it rough...it was hazardous work (nitrate you know) and there were no rules...thus they formed local unions to protect themselves from abuse physically and monitarily. Then came the "sons"...these were the guys that came in around WW2 and made not only a career but a craft out of the job. These are those old-timers that had to deal with the past and the new widescreen processes...whose booths were impecable who legends, at least in our area, still live on.

Then came the "sons of the sons." This is the group that started to lose it all. Platters came in on this group, xenon came in on this group and the attitude of the operators changed...the sons of the sons had the attitude of entitlement. They didn't learn the craft from their fathers as much as the short cuts....in our area, there were many reports of being drunk or high in the booth (this group came in in the '60s)...having met or worked with many of these people, it wasn't just a rumor...heck they will tell you the stories themselves. By the way, I metion the operators as male since that was just about all there were...in fact, up until not too long ago in Local #224 gave a seniority preference to the "first born son of a member. Well how long does it take before a theatre owner asks...how can I afford to pay this high-priced idiot to watch a platter (or reel) spin around while drunk or high and generally break more equipment than they fix? I can certainly pay someone a whole lot less for this quality without all the grief...considering that the movie industry was going through some tough times in the '70s. Certainly, this is a generalization and there are/were fine craftspeople in this group but it doesn't take too many rotten apples to spoil the barrel for everyone.

The last group of union operators is the one we are in now...the ones that seemingly have little connection to the origins and are, at times, apologizing for the misdeeds of yesteryear. Their technical prowse is often below where it should be for no other reason that they really didn't have any master operator to mentor them. They are often suffering from living in a time where society doesn't understand that labor unions can be a good thing and support a laborer's grievence by not crossing a picket line. They also suffer from the fact that being a projectionist is not considered a career move anymore. The government doesn't help matters by shifting the power way over to management side.

I maintain that trade unionism is a necessary evil that can benefit all workers within a trade, even if all of the workers are not unionized. All the government has to do is maintain the rules between employers and unions.

Steve

PS...obviously the above opinions and observations are strictly my own and do not necessarily reflect the people I work and associate with.

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