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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Film Handling Done Very Very Right (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Film Handling Done Very Very Right
Dustin Mitchell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1865
From: Mondovi, WI, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 02:32 AM      Profile for Dustin Mitchell   Email Dustin Mitchell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Again I'd like to wiegh in on the side of ID frame. Perhaps some of you are good at matching up the soundtracks on mystery prints, but I've tried and damned if I can do it. An ID frame is the only other sure fire way to make sure the reels are labeled correctly.

Now, I think a while ago I offered a compromise to this debate and I'll repost it here. Only leave an ID frame on the head of each reel. You don't need an ID frame on both ends of a splice for tearing down and one will work just fine for figuring out which reel is which.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 11-30-2001 02:34 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually I'm glad you brought that back up Dustin. That is a damned good idea and one that I wish would become more standard. Personally I agree with Dustin that losing the frame on the head of each reel would be preferable to the last frame. This way people who run changeovers would not need to keep re-scratching in the cues and the people breaking down from platters would be matching up head leaders, not tail leaders. Any opinions?
------------------------------------------
Now on to ID frames. Last year I proposed logging the first and last frame of each release on this website and posted an example of "Gone in 60 Seconds". You can see that page here. Open that link and compare the pictures to what I am writing below. The theory here is for everyone to pretend that the two frames on the right are actually the leader (since that part of the optical soundtrack would be duplicated exactly like that anyway).

Reel 2-Reel 1
Notice how the soundtrack is virtually silent. Now compare that to the other reels. The only other POSSIBLE reel that it could be is reel 7, but upon closer examination you will see that reel 7 starts with a bit of background noise whereas the start of reel 2 is almost dead silence. If that isn't enough to match up the leader to the reel, look at the magenta edgeprint and make sure the codes match (see pictures "Reel 3-Reel 2 or Reel 4-Reel 3" for examples). Finally, reel 7 ends in credits, so that's pretty obvious too.

Reel 3-Reel 2
This is a classic example of why people should NOT leave an ID frame on the leaders. Pretend that the frame of audio on either side of that splice is missing and mentally join the far left frame to the far right frame. See a problem with audio continuity? That would sound very bad.

Reel 4-Reel 3
Notice how the soundtracks follow a pattern, yet each track is different. There is a lot of stereo separation going on here, and there isn't a consistent pattern. This shows there to be a lot of background ambience noise with wide stereo separation. No other reel starts with that.

Reel 5-Reel 4
We've got a loud section of film here, judging by the width of the tracks. Also taking into account the difference between tracks tells us this is most probably more "noise", like the sound of a car racing by. Again, no other reel starts with this pattern.

Reel 6-Reel 5
This could be a musical passage. There is just enough similarity in the tracks to suggest this, as well as the pattern is not random, like the example above. Still, no other reel starts with this pattern.

Reel 7-Reel 6
As discussed above, this *could* be confused with the first reel, but the quality of these pictures is not that good. A good eye can easily tell the difference between this and the picture "Reel 2-Reel 1". Also, there's always the edgeprint code for absolute verification.

So as you see, there really is not a need to leave ID frames on the leaders at all. The only time this *could* get confusing is if there are substantial frames missing on the Reel 3-Reel 2 changeover, but again that's the entire point of NOT leaving ID frames on the leaders.

Also, in addition to the edgecode for absolute identification, almost every reel has a different tint to the film. Some reels have a "fake SRD" track, some reels have a "fake SDDS" track, some reels have a green, grey, purple, etc. tinted SDDS track, and some other reels have various densities of SRD track. So the optical soundtrack is not the only way of identifying prints without ID frames. You've got the optical soundtrack, the SRD (or lack thereof) soundtrack, the SDDS (or lack thereof) soundtrack, as well as the film stock edgeprint id.



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Mathew Molloy
Master Film Handler

Posts: 357
From: The Santa Cruz Mountains
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 05:03 AM      Profile for Mathew Molloy   Email Mathew Molloy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've always been a "no reference frame" kinda guy but when I know I might not be the one breaking the print down, I will then usually leave reference frames. I would agree that if a reference frame is necessary than the one frame off the head is the best.

I should've added before that even though I may have petty differences in opinion on 'film done right', getting a print in the condition Tao got is always welcome!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 08:01 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Today, there's another way to check that the correct leader is on the each reel.

The magenta Kodak edgeprint ID provides another way of positively matching the leader to the proper reel. Each 4000-foot or 6000-foot roll of raw stock Kodak supplies to the labs has a UNIQUE edgeprint identification number, printed about every three feet along the edge of the film (you can see examples in Brad's photos of Reel 3/2 and Reel 4/3 splices). Check the magenta edgeprint of the leader and the reel, and be sure the entire number matches.

Usually, the lab uses only one or two emulsion batches for a release, so the first two sets of numbers will likely remain the same (e.g., 2383 353). But the following numbers refer to the roll, slit and machines used, and will be unique on every roll used by the lab.

BTW, I still really like Brad's idea of posting photos of the frames either side of the reel change, perhaps in the "Feature Info & Trailer Attachments" section of Film-Tech. I discussed it at last January's meeting of the Inter-Society for the Enhancement of Theatrical Presentation, and none of the members objected, but there was some concern that images from the copyrighted films could be misused if posted on the Internet.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-30-2001 09:30 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I feel the ID frame is very important as it is the only method the next guy knows for sure that each is the correct reel.
If people peeled off the tape there would be no valid reason against it. And as for people who juat chop out frames that is no different than the use of Ultrasonic splicers that require the loss of 2 frames at every remade splice

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Joe Beres
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 606
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 09:57 AM      Profile for Joe Beres   Email Joe Beres   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matthew,
I understand your argument, but you probably wouldn't think that way if you had ever received a print that had the head and tail leaders no reference frames on them sitting in the bottom of the shipping cans. If you are staring at six unmarked reels of picture, you'll really wish that last guy left a reference frame. I guarantee it.

Matching up a soundtrack might work, but sometimes you can't tell if how many butcher projectionists have cut off how many frames. The print I received in the aforementioned state had a fair amount of damage to the heads (as they were not even taped down) and it would have been even more difficult to discern reel order by the soundtrack.

I like Brad's idea of posting the images at the reel changes, but it would be nice to have the distributor provide those images and information, but that will never happen.

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Dick Vaughan
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1032
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 10:05 AM      Profile for Dick Vaughan   Author's Homepage   Email Dick Vaughan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Matching the soundtracks might be one way ,but try doing that on 70mm mag stripe prints

I posted once before that we had a seventy print of Howards End arrive with no heads or tails ,at all. When they did arrive by post after the run they had no id frames. Double bummer.

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 10:43 AM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe we should petition the labs to print an ID frame on the leader where they spell out part of the title and reel number. They take the time to do that ... what's one more frame?

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 11-30-2001 10:46 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I proposed that at one of the P3 meetings and it was decided that was too expensive

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 11:03 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Adam Martin said: "Maybe we should petition the labs to print an ID frame on the leader where they spell out part of the title and reel number. They take the time to do that ... what's one more frame?"

As Gordon notes, that was suggested, but would involve the cost and complexity of having to make a duplicate negative of the film to get that "reference frame" to insert into the leader.

Likewise, printing the title and reel number along the edge of the print 6 to 8 feet after the head leader and 6 to 8 feet before the tail leader is already an SMPTE Recommended Practice (RP 152), but is usually not being done because of potential interference with the SDDS tracks.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 11:45 AM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
If Kodak can edgeprint in magenta without interfering with SDDS, how come labs can't put magenta print information or a solid magenta stripe on the edge at FFP and LFP?


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 12:12 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To put title and reel information along the edge, the lab would normally have to write the information along the edge of the sound negative, so it would be printed along with the SDDS track as cyan dye. You would need an additional printer head to print a different color like magenta.

The green laser printers Kodak uses would be prohibitively expensive to put on all release printers at the labs.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Adam Martin
I'm not even gonna point out the irony.

Posts: 3686
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 01:24 PM      Profile for Adam Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Martin       Edit/Delete Post 
Bummer.

Well, if they won't print anything on the film, and we all know they won't send out a technical notice with every print, then I'm fresh out of brilliant ideas.

I guess I'll just have to continue with the one-ID-frame-at-the-leader and none-at-the-tail method for now.

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John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 11-30-2001 01:27 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The space between the sprockets on the non-dolby side is still unused. How about printing the title and reel number there, one letter per sprocket.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 11-30-2001 01:52 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Printing information between the perfs on the side opposite the Dolby Digital track would require an additional printing head on every printer. Unlikely to fly.

I recall someone also suggested replacing the Dolby "Double D" trademark symbol in some of the Dolby data blocks with the reel number. You would need a magnifier to read it, but it would be printed through the entire length of the reel.

Maybe one of the Film-Tech participants from Dolby could see if this was feasible? Lonny Jennings? Ken Jacquart?

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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