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Are you saying that a typical theater after standard tuning plays at 5-5.5? If so, I do agree with you for "most" typical theaters. However I still hold my ground that theaters that have been well designed and have been EQ'd with care play do at 6.5-7. I do know of some theaters that are so piss poorly tuned that the average movie plays at 3 (and yes Mark this auditorium I speak of was aligned with an R2!) In all cases I've listed here, a stage speaker reads 85db. My argument here is upon doing it right, not just turning some dials to arrive at "the reference curve" and walking away claiming that is the best it will ever get.

I should have said dialog needs to be "comfortably loud", not LOUD. I think we agree on this.

It would be interesting to me to find out how well local theaters "measure" vs. how they sound to my ears.

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That is a common complaint and as far as DTS is concerned, we match the master mix. The overall level of the film is determined by the film maker, it is not up to us. We duplicate what is given to us. We make no changes to the mix.

I agree, though, in many instances, setting the fader for '7' is usually too much for most audiences.

I, personally, have not found a theater out of tune to greatly effect the loudness of a movie. It can effect the sound quality - harshness or muddy-ness.

Where you sit can effect the perception of loudness. I never sit in front. I prefer to sit in the "sweet spot" (rear third of theater and just off center) and set the CP master fader around '6'. I don't mind it a bit loud but I don't like my ears to hurt. I have done many industry screenings and there have been times when my ears have hurt - but that is what the client wanted. So, I'd stay in the booth with the projectionist, or sit in the back and shove cotten in my ears.

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Another thing that I get all the time in the digital houses is complaints about TOO MUCH BASS (read: subwoofer)... I have had houses with perfectly tweaked subs (done with an RTA) that when you play a real film thru them are WAY too boomy, and I end up dropping the sub levels drastically to something more 'believeable'

Also the complainers that come in and bitch about something being way too loud, (it wasn't) and nobody else complains... the guy comes out again and you notice he is wearing two hearing aids, likely turned all the way up... Makes you want to punch the guy...

No, I didn't get to see the THX guys while they were doing their thing--only heard about it after they were done. All of the CP-650's in the place are indeed set at '5' and the couple of auditoriums I've listened to since then sound fine to me level wise. So it may have happened as you describe it.

Regards,

Good work on double checking!!! Sadly, the first thing that occurs at a theater after a THX certification is just what you witnessed. he volume gets turned down. If you were to walk into the theater mid movie...say during the dialog with the fader setting at 7.0 ...I'm am sure youll find that it sounds just right! What seems to happen are those loud trailers <although comming down in volume gradually> and those sound logo snipes <like Dolby and THX> seem to take the punch out of the rest of the movie. As soon as the cusomer feels the power of those subs during the "blue note" they instantly get up and complain the movie is too loud. This in turn it takes away from the feature but what can anyone do? What can the management do? Sadly, the customer must be apeased! I don't know how many times I have personally witnessed this myself < 100+ is my best guess > It's a shame folks wont give the movies the leniency it requires. They want to see that big picture on the screen but when it comes to the sound they say "ooooohhhhhhh turn that down!" It deeply sadens me. For once I'd like someone to complain that the screen is too big. hahahaha!!!!

Brad and anyone interested: Just as a hypothetical scenario...... since most theaters are "SPLed" at 85db with fader setting at 7.0 and for the most part the consensus seems to be to reset the fader at approx 5.0 or 5.5; would it be a wise descision to reconsider to SPL the rooms at the level that 5.0/5.5 on the fader is equal to?
Seems to me that in order to avoid anymore "loudness" problems as a whole industry wide perhaps SMPTE could look into restructuring the SPL criteria since practically any theater at any facility at any chain in any state in any country experiences this "loudness" dilema.
Most folks in any other industry would conduct tests and compare data with control models etc etc etc.......and yet this "loudness" issue still is prevalent today with very few folks providing an actual solution. I know there are controls out there that are keeping Trailers from getting too loud but that solution brings those very trailers to the level in loudness to movies which are still loud according to the consensus which happen to be the customers. In most other situations or industries something a little more effective would have already been done at least in a more concrete manner. However. years go back and it seems that the same problem which I would almost characterise as an epidemic still exists virtually ignored.

Don't mis understand me. I love movies with the fader at 7.0 but I also know my mother, father, friends, and other folk think they are just toooo loud. Is 7.0 @ 85dbc an untouchable of a number? Would Director's and sound studios not stand for it one bit. Is 7.0 a number that just wont budge no matter what the situation may be? Why is it most folks complain about the loudness of movies yet probably crank up the volume of their streos way past a decent audible level. Afterall alot of music recording studios also record music at 85 dbc. At least the major studios do! Why is there unrelentless stubborness to lowering the volume as an industry being so obvious that it is such a problem?

The secret is simple. No one minds missing the trailers. If the trailers are too loud, you WILL be hearing about it in the lobby. Also as John F. Allen has pointed out, the best way to get people's attention is to run the volume of the trailers just a little bit "too low". If you think that sounds stupid, try it and behold how everyone quietens down as the previews start.

Now with this trailer level in action, you can absolutely BLAST people's heads off with the THX logo (assuming the system can take it and was well calibrated so it doesn't "hurt" to listen to), and not one single person will complain. From there a fader setting of 7 will not bring about a single complaint either. (Again assuming the system is set up properly.)

Regarding digital EQing, it sucks plain and simple. I have yet to see an auditorium that utilized digital EQing properly calibrated that when played at reference level that I was pleased with the sound on. There is something "harsh" and "metallic" sounding about it that I can't quite put my finger on, but it most certainly does affect the sound. Nothing could beat Dolby's cat64B cards and now that they have dropped the CP-65 the only option is on the used market. Rory, you are welcome to challenge me any day to an EQ competition in the same auditorium. You use the internal SDDS controls, I will use a CP200 with the SDDS signal looped through. It will be an easy win in my favor.

F.Y.I. At the GCC Northpark, the "average" fader setting for a feature was 8.0 The THX snipes normally ran at about 9.5 Trailers ran around 4-5 (each trailer had it's own volume setting). This was with the standard level settings of 85db per stage channel at "7" on the fader. Did we get complaints? Hell no. In fact, I am only aware of one complaint in the several years I ran booth there. What we did get was a ton of compliments every week. I still stand firmly in saying that it's all in the acoustics, equipment design and most importantly the EQ. Just ask anyone who ever saw a film in the #1 THX auditorium. They'll tell you.

Many customers, who pay our wages, would be bored shitless by some of the technical verbal diarrhoea spouted in the name of excessive volume levels. They just want to enjoy their vist to the cinema.

It's very simple. If the theatre is incorrectly calibrated it is a matter for the quality control of the exhibitor, independent or otherwise, concerned.

Admittedly, the largest demographic range of moviegoers, at present, is of customers who will tolerate their eardrums being turned into jelly for the sake of street cred'.

But I wonder how much business has been lost by the non-return to the cinema generally, of people who enjoyment has been spoiled by the over exuberance of the duty projectionist.

Cheers,