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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Author
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Topic: Volume Levels, is level 7 too high?
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-02-2002 12:32 AM
Gord, if that was the intent, then why bother calibrating 85db @ 7 in the first place? As far as I'm concerned, what you just posted is "cheating", as if to intentionally deceive users of the system to cover up a different problem. The actual sound level, regardless of fader setting, is still low (equivalent to playing at 5.5) and if it must be played that low to prevent ear fatigue, then the system needs more work.It's funny, all these people hollar about such things as an exact frequency response curve, making sure the surrounds are at exactly the proper level in relation to the stage channels, ensuring the subwoofer is to spec and so forth and so on all to preserve "what the director and sound mixer intended"...yet the opinion here seems that once everything is just *perfect*, it's to hell with the "director and sound mixer's intent" and the entire system at a whole...just play it at 5.  Does anyone else see a problem here? This entire silly argument seems to me like a tech waltzed in, calibrated "to the line" and left...never bothering to LISTEN to his work and to trust what he HEARS. Test instruments (yes Mark, even the R2) are wonderful, but they only get you so far. IMHO a sound tech who cannot go in and listen to a lot of familiar reels of film and be able to determine and correct what the RTA does not show isn't worth a flip.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 02-02-2002 10:03 AM
Brad said: IMHO a sound tech who cannot go in and listen to a lot of familiar reels of film and be able to determine and correct what the RTA does not show isn't worth a flip."Recall my analogy of a piano tuner. A great piano tuner may have electronic instruments to aid in the tuning process, but in the end, they use their "golden ears" for the final tweek, and always check their work by playing some music. ------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-02-2002 01:51 PM
Greg, I've found in smaller rooms most everything becomes more critical because the speakers are blasting right in your face. Try setting the EQ cards flat and adjusting the HF horn's aiming to obtain the best frequency response on the RTA, then adjust your active crossovers for a better frequency respone and finally break out the RTA for the actual EQing. Also, hard walls can add to the perceived loudness, requiring you to turn it down, so you may want to check out curtains and wall carpet. In the end though, trust your ears with the final settings. It won't be very far off from what the RTA said to set the controls at, but you can eliminate peaks and dips by ear moreso than will show up on a meter.  Gordon, try this one for me. Go into one of the best sounding theaters around in your area and set up the automation to run the previews lower and the feature louder. I'll bet'cha anything there will be no complaints. Now depending on the system, they may not be running the feature at 7, but I'll bet 6-6.5 is easily obtainable and even the blue hair crowd won't complain. It's those damned trailer mixers!!!
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Tom Fermanian
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 101
From: Sainte Adele, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 02-03-2002 07:35 PM
Hey guys,
Here's what one older film mixer (award winner by the way)told me Whenever new soundtracks premiered( 4-6 track mag digital), the intent was always to UPGRADE the quality of the sound, not to make it louder, opinions are different I was told between traditional film mixers that started with "academy' curve sound then thru 4 & 6 Track mag sound (Playback) and the new generation of mixers weened on loud rock music and live shows.Sure , nothing wrong in giving the aspect that you are there (i.e. war pictures etc.)We must remember that we cater to a wide demographic of PAYING customers, to some segments, some pictures are way too loud at fader 7, but for other movies catering to 12-25 Years, it's not loud enough?? Idividual discretion must be taken to judge what our customers will appreciate with any given production, I believe it's the duty of a good projectionist and the theatre's management to do so. If some mixers are partialy hearing impared, that's their problem, is it our intention to deafen paying customers?  ------------------
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-03-2002 08:02 PM
Tom, I think you are completely missing the point here. Nowhere has anyone on this thread say that we should deafen our customers. The point to be made here (that few seem to get) is that very few sound systems are set up properly. Look up a couple of posts. Steve also reports not having to modify the fader hardly at all from 7. That sounds to me like a properly set up system, or perhaps a tech who "cheated" like Gordon mentioned earlier in this thread.My 7 is NOT equal to your 7, which is NOT equal to your competition's 7, which is NOT equal to anyone else's 7. Sure according to the meter it may read that they are the same, but they simply are not due to all of the varying factors already mentioned (speaker placement, equipment choice, acoustics, EQ, etc). Make sense yet? Your post makes it sound like everyone who runs a well calibrated system at 7 is deafening their customers. That is not true and I resent the assumption. Any good projectionist (who has final say so on the fader setting anyway) will OF COURSE adjust the fader as needed for the particular film.
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Tom Fermanian
Expert Film Handler
Posts: 101
From: Sainte Adele, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 02-03-2002 08:39 PM
Never intended to say that anyone wants to deafen our customers, the fact is: Some theatres receive instructions from head offices : Fader setting is `"7" run everything that way: period "Don't touch that dial". According to this logic, someone at the top assumes that this is what the level is supposed to be that's how theatres should run it (if it's properly adjusted) It probably was at the opening 4 years back, but a few changed Amps & speakers later or what have you, Theatres that have not had a proper "tune up" since the begining .I know some managers that have asked techs to lower each channel from 85db to 82db to make films less loud,without transgresing head office's orders!!!Our cinema serves has a test point for local Quebec film makers, checking their "0" print, that is the first print from lab available for theatrical screening. Our Equipement is checked every 6 months(equalization, speaker sweeps etc.) or anytime equipement is changed or replaced(Speakers,Amps etc.), Monthly for Dolby tone and light optics.We run most pictures between 6 6 1/2 or 7 to agreable results.That many theatres are improperly adjusted, I Agree, I also Agree that my 7 your 7 everyone elses 7 could be different, too many variables like you mentioned. You mention that projectionist has the final say, I agree fully, I trust a good projectionist, higher management, in some instances I don't!!------------------
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Brad Miller
Administrator
Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-03-2002 08:47 PM
Gordon, your analogy is insane. The film you listed was a BRUCKHEIMER film! Bruckheimer mixes are shit, pure and simple, getting worse and worse with every production, thus they do not apply. I don't ever recall running a Bruckheimer film above 6.BTW I saw that film at the Cinemark Webb Chapel 17 when it opened. My ears were bleeding, but the projectionist I complained to said he couldn't do anything about it because the SDDS was lowered all the way down to -10. I would have rather heard it in analog mono. (Whoever EQ'd those auditoriums should be shot. They are ALL that bad! Then again, so is every Bruckheimer movie of recent years.)
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Tim Turner
Film Handler
Posts: 87
From: Chula Vista, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 02-03-2002 08:47 PM
quote:
the fact is: Some theatres receive instructions from head offices : Fader setting is `"7" run everything that way: period "Don't touch that dial".
Thats sounds dumb. What happens when customers complain that the sound is too loud? Do they just give them refunds? The thing about those head offices, at least for the 2 companies I've worked for is that they are rarley at the theatre and have no idea how things are working in the booth! Thier main concern has always been how well the concessions and customer service are doing.
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