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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » "Minority Report" in 2.39? What gives? (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: "Minority Report" in 2.39? What gives?
Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-23-2002 08:18 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, filing of plates is a normal part of installing a theatre.

Given that lenses are made in specific focal length increments (generally 5mm, sometimes 2.5mm) it is unlikely that one will be able to precisely size and mask the image over different formats with whatever screen dimension is being held constant (preferably a constant height) and the proper amount of spill onto the masking without some small adjustment of the aperture.

And that's just regarding overall image size. Correction is also required for keystoning of the image when there is down-tilt or up-tilt (the keystoning of the image will still be there but will be less noticable when the sides are kept straight. Ditto for projection onto curved screens. A small percentage loss of image at the edges for this purpose is built into the industry standard specs (SMPTE etc).

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-23-2002 09:15 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael Brown said:

>What would the hard matting be anyway? The difference between 2.35 and 2.39<

Exactly. The 2.39 frameline is a bit thicker than what you usually see on scope prints and if your optical system is projecting EXACTLY 2.35, then a print that IS hard matted to 2.39, will project frame lines, albeit slight, on the top and bottom of the screen.

As Steve points out, this difference will not usually be correctable by changing the prime lens. With lenses manufactured for the most part in 5mm increments, the next FL step would be to much to make that slight correction. The easy way around this problem would be to replace the prime lens with the new Schneider variable FL prime which is adjustable to about 7% of the mean focal length. That would allow you to make the slight adjustment that would be needed to eliminate the visible frame lines of a hard matted 2.39 print. This is an expensive proposition, however, especially for a non-profit like us.

We will probably wind up doing the simplest option, and that is dropping the top mask to compensate -- a lot cheaper than buying two new lenses. Dropping the mask, however, will mean cropping our 1.37 a bit, but it actually will help our 1.85 since that was a tad overcut (maybe like 1.83 or something). It would be really nice if ALL lenses had that 7% variable option.

Frank

PS -- Has anyone ever considered mechanizing that laborious plate filing job? While filing plates for 4 formats and two projectors, I had plenty of time to think of ways to make this job easier. I pictured rigging the file to a reciprocal saw using the saw blade clamp to hold the file; then I'd put the saw on a jig to keep it immobile. It just might work and believe me, the next time I have to file a complete set, I will give this a try.


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John Walsh
Film God

Posts: 2490
From: Connecticut, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Registered: Oct 1999


 - posted 06-23-2002 09:42 AM      Profile for John Walsh   Email John Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank; I've seen people use those "nibblers"; a tool that takes little bites out of thin sheet metal to at least get close to the desired size.

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-23-2002 10:43 AM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brad,
I totally agree with you that filmmakers use Super 35 to cater to the general public's demands to have their TV screens filled, regardless of artistic integrity. But since that artistic integrity is going to be thrown out the window for the video release, and nobody who's seeing that release is going to care anyway, why lose artistic integrity in the theater by not shooting in anamorphic?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-23-2002 12:38 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
I have no idea Mike, but I wholeheartedly agree with your reasoning. It's ashamed the people making the films don't.

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-23-2002 01:30 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would tend to disagree with the notion that there are no artistic concerns driving the choice of Super 35. Let me offer some examples. James Cameron has gone on record saying that he can't stand the visual artifacts of anamorphic photography. The fact that he chooses Super 35 seems to be driven by this aesthetic concern and he quite obviously makes sure that the labs he works with minimize the visual limitations of the format. The fact that he also utilizes the flexibility and options afforded by Super 35 (for both video and theatrical releases) is just a bonus for him. In the case of Apollo 13, the filmmakers decided that in order to have enough depth of field in cramped "capsule sets" (some of which would be inside airplanes where they wouldn't be allowed huge lighting set-ups) they needed to go with Super 35. There were a lot of side shots of the three astronauts sitting side-by-side and they wanted those guys to be in focus. And don't forget that Digital Domain (James Cameron's company) was doing visual effects for that film. In the case of Top Gun they were able to get more bang-for-the-buck using Super 35 with 3-perf pull-down on their cameras mounted to fighter jets (and this required slightly fewer camera reloads). In the case of Lord of the Rings, both Peter Jackson and his visual effects team were experienced in and comfortable with Super 35 for previous projects. Refering to all this in terms of abandoning "artistic integrity" seems a bit extreme.


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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-23-2002 02:04 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think if "artistic integrity" of the filmed image was the primary concern, then some of these Super35 films would have been shot on spherical 65mm film, or at least have the Super35 elements enlarged to 70mm blowup prints.

The avoidance of optical abberations from 'scope compression lenses is just one thing. I think the tyranny of home video's need for "full frame" is the top reason to use Super35 far above all other reasons.

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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-23-2002 07:26 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"I think the tyranny of home video's need for "full frame" is the top reason to use Super35 far above all other reasons."

...Then there must be a conspiracy to conceal this top priority from the readers of American Cinematographer. I don't wish to be contrary, but switching from spherical to anamorphic isn't quite as easy as changing lenses on a 35mm still camera. And shooting in 65mm introduces even more problems with depth of field issues. I have to face the fact that much of the know-how which was used to shoot the 65mm masterpieces of the 1960s has been lost. I think Far and Away is a prime example of what happens when an over-confident cinematographer decided it would be easy to switch to 65mm and get great results. I doubt there are very many cinematographers working today who'd like to make such a high-profile stumble... especially when the industry (on both the production and exhibition side) believes that 35mm is good enough.


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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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 - posted 06-23-2002 07:35 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Other than economics if quality was the issue to avoid anamorphic elements then shoot on 65 spherical or VV horizontal.
But I think it comes down to "Super35 is GOOD ENOUGH" mentality

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-23-2002 11:45 PM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg,
The reasons you list for filmmakers choosing Super 35 are definitely good reasons. I had heard many of these examples before, as well others. David Fincher, for example likes Super 35 because the lenses are smaller and do not interfere as much with actors. That's OK. What I think is not OK is people like Martin Scorsese, who preferred the widescreen ratio, but didn't feel comfortable shooting films in anamorphic because of what would be lost on video. Another would be John Woo, who, I'm told, shot WINDTALKERS in Super 35 because he didn't want to deal with the hassle of anamorphic lenses.

As for Cameron's reasoning, I had not heard that he does not like the artifacts created by anamorphic lenses. This is a good reason for him not to use them. But at the same time, I think he's nuts. What I love more than anything else about anamorphic lenses are all of the little imperfections. This is why I'd prefer them over one of the larger formats. I grew up with movies like ALIEN and DIE HARD, so to me, those imperfections are just a part of movies. I think they're beautiful. But that's just my opinion, and, unlike Mr. Cameron, I haven't directed four or five of the best pictures ever made, so I'll shut up now.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 06-24-2002 12:55 AM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe the reason the SUPER 35 format was FIRST used was precisely for the depth of field problem. The DP of the 1983 GREYSTOKE wanted the SCOPE look but a better depth of focusthen was achievable by SCOPE lenses, especially in the jungle scenes (this was fairly well documented in AMerican Cinematographer). If depth of field is the one determining factor in avoiding scope, then shooting in 65mm would be even more of a problem with the larger lenses used.

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001


 - posted 06-24-2002 12:56 AM      Profile for Aaron Haney   Email Aaron Haney   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here is an interview in which James Cameron discusses his use of Super-35. Here is a quote from page 2:
quote:
Whenever you have lens flares in anamorphic, you get these straight lines all the way across the frame. Some people like those, but I think they're ridiculous and don't correspond to anything in the way the human eye sees things. People associate that effect with 'big movies,' but that's just because for a long time big movies were all shot in anamorphic. So some people think a picture has that 'big movie' look because the headlights on a car create these white lines that go from one edge of the frame to the other. That doesn't correspond to anything I see in my daily life ... Super 35 just lacks certain anamorphic artifacts that I think are detriments, and I much prefer that look.


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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-24-2002 01:32 AM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
James Cameron is a wacky guy. Personally, I don't associate anamorphic lens flares with big movies. I associate them with cool movies. And one of the reasons why they are so cool is because they have anamorphic lens flares. He says that the human eye doesn't see lens flares in daily life. Well, it doesn't see grain either. Personally, I'd rather see the lens flares. But that's just me. Cameron can and should do whatever he wants. Having made THE ABYSS, he has earned that right. Just as long as the only reason isn't because of his concern for the video release.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 06-24-2002 02:51 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I dunno, I look at those new super high intensity designer headlights that look like they've got 4000w xenon bulbs in them, and not only do I see flare that goes across my entire field of vision, but for the next quarter mile I don't see ANYTHING and then for the next three miles, all I see is big round dots.

I am very close to perfecting a secret invention (patent pending) that easily installs in the front dash; it senses those super bright "designer" headlights while they are still miles away and aims a cryaton particle beam at them, creating a sympathetic vibration of the filaments which causes them to EXPLODE before they get anywhere near my car. The deluxe model will also immediately jam any "On-Star" transmitter should it be used to call for help.

Oh, and excuse me, James (King-of-the-World) Cameron, are you saying that spherical lenses have no flare? How about those shots made with a spherical lens where a bright light will produce a line-up of dots that radiate progressively outward from the light source, and if the light source moves, the line of dots swings around the radius -- do we see THAT in real life? Some of these artifacts are a given in cinematography. Years ago such shots might have been re-done; in recent years this kind of artifact is more and more tolerated. It's really a matter of taste and what bothers or doesn't bother the director and/or cinematographer. If Mr. Cameron is annoyed by the flare caused by anamorphic lenses as opposed to the flare caused by spherical lenses, you really can't argue with him; but as far as the audience is concerned, if polled, they probably would say that anyone arguing about which is the better kind of flare, needs to change their medication or just say no to drugs all together.

Frank

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-24-2002 03:15 AM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
FWIW when my glasses get little droplets of water on them I tend to see reflections of headlights similar to what you see in spherical.

I've never seen the anamorphic flare occur anywhere else in real life.

Besides, a lot of scope projection lenses suck. I'm running test loops in all of my projectors to determine which (if any) of the scope lenses are still any good. So far...I'd say they all need to be replaced for one reason or another. Mainly it's a focus problem.


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