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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » "Minority Report" in 2.39? What gives? (Page 7)

 
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Author Topic: "Minority Report" in 2.39? What gives?
Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 07-02-2002 03:54 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[rude sarcasm mode] Mike, this is clear evidence that American Cinematographer is trying to invent artistic reasons for using Super 35 and covering up the overriding need to adapt films for 4:3 video.[/rude sarcasm mode]


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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-02-2002 10:19 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, the July issue of In Camera showed up today, and on the back there's the usual Kodak film ad. I took a little bit of a closer look at it for some reason, and in the upper left, it says about Kodak Vision 800T: "world's fastest tungesten-balanced stock; sharpness and grain of slower products; low light, fast action, anamorphic, super 35mm."

Curiously, it's the only one of the 9 film stocks in the ad that mentions Super 35. Yet it's a fast film; I was under the impression that all the issues with grain in Super 35 meant that you wanted to use slower stocks, not faster ones. So, John, why is Kodak promoting Super 35 with Vision 800T?

--jhawk

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-02-2002 10:50 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The ad said it: "sharpness and grain of slower products". The VISION color negative technology is constantly improving.
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/negative/5289.shtml

Sure, VISION 200T will have finer grain. But if the situation demands, the 5289 can yield remarkable images for being such a fast film.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 07-02-2002 10:55 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Hmm."

I guess I find myself wondering what sort of negative film tends to be used on the Super 35 films that we do see as looking grainy. Thanks for the snappy response., btw.
--jhawk


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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-02-2002 11:42 PM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's that scan I promised of the out of frame frame line in Minority reel one.

As you can see, it is up in the frame...it seems that the bottom of the 'printed' frameline sits on the actual frameline and thus gives the illusion you need to frame down. But don't or you will ACTUALLY be out of frame.

Is every print like this?

John

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Too much of the rest of the film is given over to a romance between Padme and Anakin in which they're incapable of uttering anything other than the most basic and weary romantic cliches, while regarding each other as if love was something to be endured rather than cherished. There is not a romantic word they exchange that has not long since been reduced to cliche.

No, wait: Anakin tells Padme at one point: "I don't like the sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating--not like you. You're soft and smooth." I hadn't heard that before.

- Roger Ebert reviewing Episode 2.


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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 07-03-2002 05:22 AM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greg,
I don't think that anyone was arguing that there aren't people who use Super 35 for artistic reasons. It's just that there seem to be a lot of people who don't.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 07-03-2002 06:04 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
John, yes the prints I've seen are like this too. We thought it an odd defect. Just wait until I get the time to post some examples of the defects in the print I screened!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-03-2002 08:03 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
jhawk said: "I guess I find myself wondering what sort of negative film tends to be used on the Super 35 films that we do see as looking grainy. Thanks for the snappy response., btw."

Having looked at MANY movies in my career, my own feeling is that underexposure is the most frequent culprit in "grainy" pictures. An underexposed negative will print with low density shadow areas ("smoky blacks"), so the fast negative grains that capture shadow detail will be printed light enough to be easily seen on the print. A "richer" exposure pushes the image further up the negative's characteristic curve, onto the finer grained emulsion components, and even the grainer fast components are printed to a "rich" solid black that minimizes the grain.

If I had a limited amount of light, I would choose to use a film that was a stop faster, rather than be forced to underexpose by one stop.

I do not dispute that all things being equal, the larger image area of 2.39:1 anamorphic will yield lower graininess than 2.39:1 Super 35. But the excellent sharpness and low graininess of the KODAK VISION family of films allows Super 35 "Done Right" to look very good:
http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/negative/


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-03-2002 08:11 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Wilson said: "As you can see, it is up in the frame...it seems that the bottom of the 'printed' frameline sits on the actual frameline and thus gives the illusion you need to frame down. But don't or you will ACTUALLY be out of frame."

That Dreamworks title is either a CGI or optical element. Someone erred on the vertical positioning when it was made. It would affect ALL prints.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-04-2002 08:07 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes John. BTW, it's not on the Fox tag yet it continues into the opening pre-cog murder sequence.

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Arthur Allen
Film Handler

Posts: 99
From: Renton, WA, USA
Registered: Aug 2001


 - posted 07-04-2002 08:30 PM      Profile for Arthur Allen   Author's Homepage   Email Arthur Allen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not only was the Dreamworks logo out of line with the Fox logo, but I could swear the first scene after the black titles was also printed up, but I couldn't get my bearings up just then to tell for sure. On later reels there were lots of intermixed scenes with and without the black band at the bottom, but that could partially be because of bi-directional printing.

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Brian Tristam Williams
Film Handler

Posts: 93
From: Johannesburg, South Africa
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 07-10-2002 06:11 AM      Profile for Brian Tristam Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Brian Tristam Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I got my first exposure to this print long after this thread was begun, but yes, I did notice that the film was particularly grainy, and it was not shot using an anamorphic process, as there were no aberrations. There were some elliptical lens-flares, but those were done with CGI.

If Super-35 can be 'done right', why isn't it? Why did every print I've seen using it have to be grainy?

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 07-10-2002 09:04 AM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is "We were soldiers" Super 35 too?
Michael

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 07-10-2002 09:34 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brian asked: "If Super-35 can be 'done right', why isn't it? Why did every print I've seen using it have to be grainy?"

Could be many reasons:

They wanted a grainy/"gritty" look
They couldn't get enough light to avoid underexposure
They preferred the "look" or flexibility of a faster film stock
A proprietary (non-standard) "silver retention" or "bleach bypass" process was used

It can be "done right":
http://www.theasc.com/magazine/dec97/titanic/pgs35/pg1.htm
http://www.cameraguild.com/interviews/chat_carpenter/carpenter_titanic.htm
http://www.cinesite.com/core/press/articles/1998/01_00_98-titanic.html
http://www.cinesite.com/core/press/articles/1998/02_00_98-digital_revolutn.html


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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John Wilson
Film God

Posts: 5438
From: Sydney, Australia.
Registered: Dec 1999


 - posted 07-10-2002 10:14 AM      Profile for John Wilson   Email John Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
>>Is "We were soldiers" Super 35 too?
Michael<<

From memory, yes.

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