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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » "Minority Report" in 2.39? What gives? (Page 4)

 
This topic comprises 8 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
 
Author Topic: "Minority Report" in 2.39? What gives?
Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 06-24-2002 04:51 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Manny, odds are the anamorphic is not focused properly. Load up a PA35 loop. Dial the anamorphic's focus to it's extreme so the picture is incredibly blurry. Now use the projector's focus to focus the horizontal lines razor sharp. From this point on, do not touch the projector's focus again. Now adjust the anamorphic's focus until the vertical lines converge and you have the sharpest picture possible. Now lock down the anamorphic's focus and you're done. You have now just focused the lens THROUGH the lens, instead of relying on those footage marks on the barrel which are always a bit off.


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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 06-24-2002 07:13 AM      Profile for Manny Knowles   Email Manny Knowles   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow Brad! It's funny you know...Never focused them like that before. Seems like it should've been one of the first things I learned, huh?

Thanks. I will try that today and let you know if it helps...these were used lenses when I got them, so it was easy to assume that they weren't aging gracefully.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-24-2002 09:45 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's all in the "Tips" section of Film-Tech:

"• Focusing Anamorphics-Tips for achieving a better focus on scope films."

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-24-2002 09:56 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Standard SMPTE 59 specifies the Camera Aperture Image and Usage. For "Style B" anamorphic pictures, the aperture dimensions are 0.864 x 0.732 inches. So if the usual continuous contact printing was used for duplicating, the height of the "scope" frame on the film for a production shot with anamorphic camera lenses would be 0.732 inches, and the framelines would be 0.014 inches thick (4 x 0.1866 - 0.732 = 0.0144). Of course, SMPTE 195 specifies the projectable image area as 0.825 x 0.690 inches.

To answer an earlier question, yes, optical printers are usually pin-registered. (Some continuous optical reduction printers have been used in the past, primarily for printing 16mm to Super 8). By "forcing" pin-registration to be used for making the duplicate negatives, Super 35 can result in better steadiness.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion

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Brian Tristam Williams
Film Handler

Posts: 93
From: Johannesburg, South Africa
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 06-25-2002 01:48 AM      Profile for Brian Tristam Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Brian Tristam Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally, I love the anamorphic process. I love the character of it - the lens flares, the elliptical abberations, all of it.

Do we see these abberations in real life? Well, put it this way - do we see aliens in real life? Cowboys? Robots from the future on motorcycles, being chased by large trucks through the LA drainage system? Monsters from the bottom of the ocean? The only thing I've seen in real life that resembles a 'big picture' is 9/11.

We're not going to the pictures to see real life. If we wanted that, we could sit in the park. Anyhow, each to their own. I just happen to like the 'feel' of anamorphic.

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David Baum
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 06-25-2002 06:41 AM      Profile for David Baum     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Panavision (ideally with 70mm) looks the best, imho. non anamorphic 35mm 2.39:1 is however prefered for its "easiness" to shoot (compared to Panavision) and it "looses" less when transfered for the crappy 4/3 viewings on TV , so 35mm 2.39:1 transfered to video "looks" often sharper (but less with less depth!!) than Panavision.
Btw,is Minority Report print so blurry and fusy because of the filtering as some say? http://home.hiwaay.net/~criswell/theatre/static_subpages/formats/shooting_formats.html

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Tao Yue
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 209
From: Princeton, NJ
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 06-25-2002 01:35 PM      Profile for Tao Yue   Author's Homepage   Email Tao Yue   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Brian, there is such a thing as going too far in anamorphic advocacy. It's great because it gives better resolution, less grain, and widescreen images, while still using 4-perf 35mm. It's not great because it has less depth-of-field, uneven focus shifting, and unusual lens flare effects.

The last two can be used to artistic effect, and it's great when they seem to fit in. However, there are many cases when they are merely annoying, simply because they're not real life. Anamorphic IMAX, for instance, just wouldn't make sense. Special effects (prior to the CGI era) would've been a lot harder if they'd shot in Technirama instead of VistaVision. Anamorphic effects would have seriously screwed up the lighting.

Do we see some fantastic images in movies? Sure. But do you also enthusiastically accept fake-looking CGI imaging because it has "character?" Most of us would prefer that it look believable, even if it's a scene that we'd never see in real life.

Interestingly enough, some of the CGI in Minority Report was mistakenly rendered with anamorphic lens effects. The scene on the highway, for instance, showed some anamorphic flare (watch for ovals). Poor communication with the effects house, I suppose?

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-25-2002 01:59 PM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm guessing that the CGI lens flares were intentionally made to look anamorphic. Movies do this all the time and it drives me crazy, because it seems like they're cheating. STAR WARS: EPISODE II--ATTACK OF THE CLONES does this. So does PANIC ROOM. The only thing that bothers me more than that are when spherical lens flares are used for anamorphic movies. Spielberg did this with HOOK, and it also happened in BLESS THE CHILD.

I'm sure that it is very annoying to work with anamorphic lenses, and there are certainly some problems with them. But I'd still rather have shallow focus and lens flares than excessive grain.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 06-25-2002 02:53 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mike said: "I'm sure that it is very annoying to work with anamorphic lenses, and there are certainly some problems with them. But I'd still rather have shallow focus and lens flares than excessive grain."

I agree that the larger image area of the 35mm anamorphic frame makes the most efficient use of the camera negative image area. The area that ends up on the screen is 0.825 x 0.690 inches. With Super 35, the area that ends up on the screen is 0.945 x 0.394 inches, or about 65% of the anamorphic area. And "size does matter".

But for Super 35, using slower films, avoiding underexposure, and care in printing can all be used to reduce the graininess, with many examples of "Super 35 Done Right".


------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-25-2002 04:04 PM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm still confused. Is the massive amount of grain found in most Super 35 films caused mainly by the smaller negative or by some step in post-production? Also, are there any extra generations in between the original negative and the release print of a Super 35 film as opposed to something which was shot anamorphic?

John, what's a recent example of "Super 35 done right"? Can this vary from print to print of a single movie? I'm just wondering, because I saw a print of WINDTALKERS at school a couple of months ago, and it looked substantially better than the one which is at my theater right now. Of course, we're showing it on a much larger screen, but the difference seemed to be pretty big.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

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From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 06-25-2002 07:38 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Certainly the very fact that optical printing is being used will have a tendency to bring up the grain. Super 35 generally looks great in dailies. The falloff in quality that typically ocurrs seems greater than the simple IP/IN generational loss one sees with regular printing. It's useful to look at the 2.39 projected image and try to imagine the size of the entire original silent-width 35mm frame above and below it. When one considers how large such a tiny sliver of negative is being enlarged then it doesn't seem so bad.

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-25-2002 08:53 PM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,
Thanks a lot for the info. But now I have a somewhat unrelated question. What exactly is the aspect ratio of a full 35mm frame without a soundtrack? I've been told that it's 1.67:1. Is that true? I'm just curious.

By the way Steve, (and this completely off-topic, I'm sorry) but I've been fortunate enough to see a couple movies in your theater and I was really impressed. It has this atmosphere of, like, a total love for movies. It's really cool. Thanks for the experience.

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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 06-25-2002 09:16 PM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
(topic) Anamorphic Flare - If flare is going to happen, I like AF as opposed to plain old, spherical lens flare. Gives you that good old Hollywood/Panavision feeling. (I like cue dots too. I will miss those guys someday.) (Ditto that feeling about distant, out-of-focus points of light, but either circle (or oval)-of-confusion is acceptable.)

(topic) Super 35 done right - Is "Titanic" recent enough? Was it considered to be grainy?

(topic) Graininess in "Minority Report" - until Spielberg says differently, I believe that was his vision. I don't like graininess normally, but for this picture I think it worked, as did his Black & White vision for "Schindler's List".

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002


 - posted 06-25-2002 11:12 PM      Profile for Mike Schindler   Email Mike Schindler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell,
I totally agree with everything you said about MINORITY REPORT.

Can you think of anything more recent than TITANIC? I didn't have a very good eye for things like this at that point. Could you give an example of something from, say, the past 2 years? If not, then doesn't that say something about the quality of Super 35 in general? Also, how much of "Super 35 done right" falls on the filmmaker's shoulders as opposed to other factors, like the lab, money, etc.? From that Cameron interview, it seemed like he had a bit more control over the process than most people, but he was also taking greater care to ensure that it would turn out OK. Thanks.

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Brian Tristam Williams
Film Handler

Posts: 93
From: Johannesburg, South Africa
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 06-26-2002 02:28 AM      Profile for Brian Tristam Williams   Author's Homepage   Email Brian Tristam Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tao:

You're missing my point, as detailed below.

"Brian, there is such a thing as going too far in anamorphic advocacy."

Perhaps, but I wasn't advocating anything.

"It's not great because it has less depth-of-field, uneven focus shifting, and unusual lens flare effects."

Those very traits may be what gives anamorphic its character.

"But do you also enthusiastically accept fake-looking CGI imaging because it has "character?" "

Yes! Many have commented that the original Star Wars films looked a lot better with their fallible models than the new 'perfect' looking films. What about Knight Rider? I loved the cheesy models - CGI in a new Knight Rider just would look too plastic for me. Your inspirations are determined by your experience. If the best movie you ever saw had fake-looking CGI, you may just look upon this fake-looking CGI as nostalgic, and very comfortable, depending, of course, upon the context of the material you're viewing. Indeed, I don't want to see anamorphic abberations in IMAX Lions of the Serengeti, or bad, fake-looking CGI in Lethal Weapon!

"Most of us would prefer that it look believable, even if it's a scene that we'd never see in real life."

Sure. But I'm not advocating anything, and therefore not speaking for "most of us."

The point is that I grew to love anamorphic 35mm, and all that represents it, warts and all.



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