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Author Topic: Comments and Info on Robert Film Service Lamphouse / Reflector Upgrades Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-04-2004 06:41 PM                     I would have to say that having to purchase anything through NCS would preclude our ever using it. RFS certainly could come up with a better distributer...prehaps one of the U.S. lamp manufacturers as they would be technically more adept at handling this sort of thing. With NCS you never know who is going to show up at your site and how qualified they really are. This has been one of my customers biggest complaints about them. They have some very qualified and some very unqualified techs. Also, another major overlook is that most theatre supply dealers generally don't buy through other theatre supply dealers, they generally will offer their customer an alternative instead. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Mark A. MacLellan Film Handler Posts: 23 From: Montreal, Quebec Registered: Jul 2003 posted 03-04-2004 09:09 PM                    Umm, it still sounds like we're confusing National Cinema Supply with National Cinema Service. However, let me also clarify that Technalight is now distributed by CineLite in Connecticut. There is also an entirely specific program in place for re-marketers and re-sellers. Historically, RFS has performed the initial one or two Technalight installations for each new customer. When the customer has determined that they will proceed with further installations RFS personnel train a tech of the customer's choice, either an in-house tech who works for the theatre company or a tech from an outside service company that the chain normally uses for their service. We have encountered both situations in the past. As I had said in previous postings, all tech support and components originate directly from RFS in Montreal. Hope that clears up the issue.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-04-2004 09:48 PM                     Ok, So this is where it leaves me..... 1. We would be buying through a U.S. Distributer and paying a premium to them for your product. 2. You are shipping the equipment DIRECTLY to us from Quebec as well as sending ONE OF YOUR technicians to us to oversee the installation(good idea since you guys do know all about it!). 3. Other than taking a cut of the profits from both of us, and probably more from me, what exactly is this distributer providing for either of us? To me it looks as though they are just acting as an unnecessary middle man. 4. Who is CineLite? Just a division of NCS I would presume since both have Conn. locations .There is no web site for them in doing a search on Google. But there are a number of other companies called CineLite that come up. 5. Setting it up this way makes no sense to me nor to a few other dealer friends I know. simply said, this is not how cinema supply dealers will generally do buisness. Of the hundreds of vendors we sell products for none of them are a distributer of products. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Mark A. MacLellan Film Handler Posts: 23 From: Montreal, Quebec Registered: Jul 2003 posted 03-04-2004 10:42 PM                    Well, I'm sorry that this approach does not please some but it is part of a very deliberate marketing strategy that is working very well. Of course, anyone who sells or services Kinoton (just an example) has to go through a "distributor", Kinoton USA. So I don't believe it is that unusual.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-05-2004 08:21 AM                     Ok, So you still haven't answered questions 3 and 4. Also, Kinoton USA is a vendor not a supply dealer. You've got CineLite and Technalight...Lite and Light... you guys seem pretty confused to me. Whats your booth number at Showest where presumably you or your "distributor" will be showing the product? What Las Vegas theatre will the demo be at? Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Larry Shaw Expert Film Handler Posts: 238 From: Boston, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-05-2004 08:54 AM                        A manufacturer with hundreds of products like Kinoton who insists on providing good service to its customers on another continent many time zones away has to decide whether to open a sales/service/parts/marketing/warehouse facility in that location themselves, or to set one up with people already familiar with the market. Kinoton chose the latter, of course, Kinoton America (We selected America rather than USA or US purposely to include our friends in other countries we serve in North and South America, like Canada.) This is rather different than a very small company just across the border. This is not to say there's anything wrong with what RFS is doing; the impetus for having a distributor is much different however.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-05-2004 08:32 PM                     Always found the support BLS provides is exceptional to engineers that service kinoton equipment in the field  |  IP: Logged Mark A. MacLellan Film Handler Posts: 23 From: Montreal, Quebec Registered: Jul 2003 posted 03-06-2004 12:51 AM                    Of course, it has not been BLS since 2002 but whatever...I agree that the service is excellent. I'm can't make ShoWest this year myself but I do know that CineLite has a booth and that the Technalight console will be there. As for where they are...I'm not aware of the booth number off-hand. My focus in recent months has been filling orders and keeping the production end of things moving. The marketing efforts are directed by CineLite so I'm not completely in-the-loop with respect to what they have planned but for anyone who's genuinely interested I'm sure I can find out. Note that I said genuinely interested  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-06-2004 04:56 AM                     Mark, I think you would find that with the exception of a couple of Techers here that we are all very interested in it. Its just a very unfortunate decision that Technalight made as a choice for U.S. Distributer. I can think of at least a dozen or so locations, about half of them Drive Ins, right off the bat that would benefit from the conversion. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-06-2004 07:55 PM                     Personally I would rather replace the lamphouse with a newer one and gain the better optics with new wiring and ignitors If one wants to retrofit there are many good sources of reflectors out there Kinoton's Ernamann's and Meopta's all are available on a OEM basis  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-25-2004 06:42 PM                     Ok, I did much investigation into this system while at Showest. First off, The folks representing the Technilite equipment at the Cinelite booth were giving out information that was both true and not true. The untrue information was that dicro coated metal mirrors have a huge efficiency loss after just 500 to 600 hours of use. Although I didn't say anything to them during our discussions this statement seemed rediclous to me so I talked to the people from Optiform who were at Showest that make most of the metal mirrors used today in cinema lamphouses and was told the following. "This is definately not true. In actuality there is a 4% to 7% loss in efficiency of a brand new dicro coated metal mirror after about the first 600 hours of use. Then the dropoff in efficiency is extremely gradual over about a 10 to 15 year period." I tend to side with this information because I have many 10 plus year old metal dicros in the field that still perform extremely well, including one in my vintage Toledo, Ohio made Strong Super LumEx that is at least 20 years old. All in all it seems to me that the drop off in efficiency is similar to the drop off of a typical low power LED..... Some in the first few hundred hours and then very gradual over many many years. What I will say is that this modification apprently does work and will for the most part perform as claimed. It is based on the glass reflector combined with the use of the new Osram short gap 4200 watt lamp. Although, according to the people at Optiform it would be very easy to make a metal dicro mirror that would achieve the exact same results. Technilite is so confident of the efficiency of this system that they will come out and install it and if the end results are not as they claim you are not obligated to purchase it. So there is no real risk involved here. There was also mention by Technilite prople of the possible need to also try to tweek the system by the use of newer style lenses...so depending on what lenses you have in use now you may also be purchasing new lenses at much additional expense to be able to get the last lumen of light onto the screen. The operational down side to me and one that is very obvious is that this system uses the recently developed short gap xenon lamps that have a relativly short 500 hour warrantied life. The Osram folks did mention to me that they have been working dilligently on increasing this with good results out to 750 hours. This may not be a problem for the average 5 month out of the year drive-in, but this could be a big deal to hard top theatres that run 12 plus hours a day... they'd go through alot of expensive lamps! All in all we are still interested in trying this system out for ourselves and expect the claims made to be true for the most part. I hope the clairfications above will remove some of the mystery about this system and make thigns a bit more clear for those that have criticised it and failed to do their homework. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged Greg Pauley Expert Film Handler Posts: 173 From: Huntington, WV, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted 03-26-2004 01:01 PM                        Mark, My understanding is the 4200wt short gap lamp is used for large venues replacing the 7000wt bulbs. My three technalite kits all use regular Osram 3000WH bulbs on 48 foot screens and you should be able to get a couple thousand hours on those bulbs. Technalite was sold as a way to reduce a bulb size and at the same time increase the light on the screen. Most independents with limited funds would find it hard to purchase a system that would cut your bulb size on one hand, and on the other hand force you to purchase a more expensive bulb with half the life expectancy. This is not the case, at least with the systems that I purchased. I don’t have experience with every lamphouse manufactured, but my experience with dicro coated metal mirrors such as used in the strong lamphouses lose a lot of light after couple of years. The metal acts as a heat sink and causes degradation in light output over time even with good ventilation.  |  IP: Logged Mark A. MacLellan Film Handler Posts: 23 From: Montreal, Quebec Registered: Jul 2003 posted 03-26-2004 02:16 PM                    Greg....agreed, your interpretation is correct. And now there is a new Technalight reflector that we have just introduced in the past few weeks with a hot coating that allows someone to replace a 4K or even a 5K with a 2000W/H and expect more light with greater uniformity. The hot coating, when using only a 2K lamp, has not been determined to introduce any heat disadvantage. The reflective properties are even greater with this one than our dichro but obviously you're limited to using a 2K or perhaps a 2.5K before heat starts to become an issue.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-26-2004 05:55 PM                     2K xenon lamps with hot reflectors do not like high silver or black and white prints as there is a lot of focus and blistering issues  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-27-2004 01:12 PM                     Gerg, I'm sorry but both you and the information given out by Technilite regarding metal mirror dicro fading is simply dead wrong. How long a metal dicro lasts is simply dependent on how well it is cooled. Having known this for quite a few years past its the main reason that I always specify ALOT of airflow for cooling. As a result of proper cooling I've simply not experienced any of the fading problems and pretty much see what the engineers at Optiform talk about. When you loose your forst mirror to an explosion you will be thinking that it would certainly be advantagous to see Technilite contract with Optiform for a metal mirror!! Keep in mind that the dicro coating on the glass mirror is pretty much the same as whats vaporized onto the metal mirror and it is subject to the same fade rates and temperature excursions as the metal mirror is. Thats an unfortunate law of physics in the case of either mirror. Optiform has in fact told me that the heat reflected by either a glass or metal dicro mirror of equal specifications is just about the same in the UV and IR regions when measured with a spectroscope. If you don't believe what I've stated above than I'd be more than happy to supply you with the mans name and his phone number at Optiform via e-mail. He asked me not to post his name on line but said he would be more than happy to back me up on these statements. Our Technilite installations would mainly be in drive ins and on large indoor screens. The outdoor installs would in fact require the 4.2k short gap Osram to attain the needed amount of light. All of these screens are in a somewhat high ambient light level area of town and there is also one screen with a 19" focal length lens for flat that will eat up some of that light. There is no lens available as a replacement for that screen so it has to run with what it has for lensing. As for the indoor versions it would probably be with the 3K lamps and I don't remember having mentioned any life span problems or concerns with those lamps. As for Gords assumption about B&W estar film. It may require one or two extra heat mirrors in the optial path to keep things cool enough. A water type heat filter in the optical path would also work very well for B&W estar. Mark @ CLACO  |  IP: Logged

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