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Author Topic: New DTS Anti-Piracy Security Enhancements Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 12-03-2003 10:05 PM                  Hate to burst your bubble, Greg. But those "chips" are available all over the place... and so is the software for the DTS stuff if you look hard enough. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-03-2003 10:19 PM                        But the chips rely on other methods than actually breaking the encryption code. Like the all for one chip that turns on everything if you subscribe to one thing or the clone chip system that requires the one chip to be subscribed and the clones all get a free ride. It works until the MASTER gets caught then all the SLAVES get turned off too. Although these are a way around the encryption they don't actually break the encryption. (My reference is rather dated as I haven't really followed the scrambling issue since "C" band went out of style) But my point was that most encryption techniques are never secure....for long Anyway...if you are DTS you have to work with both the studios and the exhibitors. The studios control your software (product). If they say "You will do this or else" what are you going to say? No? I really don't think this is some ploy to screw the exhibitors, they'd be cutting their own throats! I think a little slack should be cut  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 12-03-2003 10:41 PM                        Again, as I posted earlier, why would the studios demand such a thing, especially when they barely care about DVD screeners which are far more liable to cause loss of revenue than DTS discs?  |  IP: Logged Greg Mueller Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1687 From: Port Gamble, WA Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-03-2003 11:11 PM                        Well if DTS is really doing this then they, like others who don't know how to do business, will die. But I just can't believe they would make such a colossal mistake after having come this far and have such good market penetration. They didn't get where they are by being stupid or assholes. That's why it doesn't make sense that they would do something that would so obviously turn a lot of customers against them, unless they had no choice. Obviously the studios have it in their head that piracy is hurting them. This DTS issue is not the first we have heard of piracy problems and the studios trying (in a misguided way, I think) to do something about it. I doubt it will be the last thing we hear. I can't imagine what they think they can do about SRD. But DTS looks like an easy mark to the studios because they have those little "records" that they think can be copied or stolen or something. Even though I make my living on the SRD side of the fence, I still feel sorry for the DTS guys cause they make a good product and I think they are being singled out and beat up because they are convenient. I could be totally wrong, we'll see. Maybe they'll test out this new system and in the trials it will be obvious that it is not going to work and they'll scrap it. Or maybe it will work but the piracy will continue and they'll figure out the problem is somewhere else. I don't have all the answers  |  IP: Logged Chris Trainor Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Greenville, RI, USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-04-2003 03:43 AM                        Getting off topic a little but on the side discussion about HBO: The encryption HBO actually uses has not been cracked since the early days. The original Videocipher was cracked (in a way like pressing the Shift key on your computer to crack that CD anti-copy thing) fairly quickly. General Instruments fixed that pretty quickly with VCII+. Digicipher (built by GI now owned by Motorola) has also never been cracked. This is not because of laws, but due to design. It's a fairly expensive system and was built to be completely secure, with no backdoors. Also, they 'future proofed' the system as well... just in case someone cracks it, all Digicipher systems have an add-on slot where you can insert a little PC board (not a smartcard) to change the crypto system. The little mini-dish systems on the other hand use a very easy to circumvent encryption (essentially you can clone an authorized card). The encryption it self is good, but the authorization method sucks. This is because of cost issues, they want cheap encoders and cheap decoders (since they give the receivers away). ---- Now, back on topic. It would be interesting if DTS did something like a funky tone now and then in the soundtrack to identify the source... but that would mean tracking individual disks which I think would be prohibitive... unless the tones were added in by the player... some unique ID that was put in the output now and then...like the CRAP code... but audio funkyness like that would probably piss off customers (ticketbuyers) enough for a revolt. --Chris  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-04-2003 06:27 AM                     It doesn't seem tenable that DTS is prepared to orphan all the DTS-6D and 6AD users after assuring everyone the XD10 would remain backward compatible (except for 10-channel movies). It also doesn't seem tenable that the goal is to introduce a scheme to prevent you from copying CDROM discs; as far as I know, that's almost impossible. They can make it such that some software cannot copy them, but if the SCSI drives in the DTS players can read them, then they can be copied. Therefore, I suspect this scheme is geared toward either a) preventing tampering of the CDs (e.g. shuffling reels around between discs or shuffling trailers between discs), or b) preventing the software DTS decoders from working. Either way, I suspect this translates into a new DTS.EXE and a new format within the ISO-9660 CDROM, and perhaps some additional level of encryption/obfuscation. We'll see. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-04-2003 12:14 PM                     I really see no need for the copy protection measures. As others have stated, the discs are totally useless without a film print and a full blown movie theater equipped for DTS. Perhaps there might be a miniscule handful of people out there fascinated enough by the system to try to develop a software only solution for playing back the audio on the discs, but with all the trouble one must go through to do it the whole endeavor seems like a complete waste of time. It should also be stated those who download and watch movies on the Internet that are currently in theatrical release don't seem to be bothered by horrible video and audio quality. So why would they even bother with the hassle of trying to use a DTS movie CD-ROM? Most postings I've seen in audio related binaries newsgroups concerning DTS are completely home theater related. Most people are trying to get pirated versions of SurCode (which only encodes the home theater version of DTS, not the completely different theatrical format). Some want to do illogical things like take a Dolby Digital audio track and convert it over to DTS to play on a CD (with a nice loss in generational quality thanks to demuxing a lossy compressed audio track and then running through another lossy encode step).  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-04-2003 03:37 PM                     So JHawk, since you have done your own "custom trailer shuffling" in the past, perhaps you may be able to answer this seemingly simple question. quote: Either way, I suspect this translates into a new DTS.EXE and a new format within the ISO-9660 CDROM, and perhaps some additional level of encryption/obfuscation. What's to prevent me from using an old DTS.EXE file with new AUD files? Perhaps some coding inside the AUD files? And regardless, I do agree with you. A straight bit for bit cd copy would be pretty much impossible to prevent.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 12-04-2003 03:43 PM                     Assuming for the moment that my conjecture is correct: "I suspect this translates into a new DTS.EXE and a new format within the ISO-9660 CDROM, and perhaps some additional level of encryption/obfuscation." Brad asks, "What's to prevent me from using an old DTS.EXE file with new AUD files? Perhaps some coding inside the AUD files?" What I meant to suggest when I said "new format" was that the .AUD files would change. Either they would be replaced with a different sort of file, or their contents/formats would change (perhaps they would become one monolithic file?). This is just speculation, of course. --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-04-2003 03:47 PM                     Oh well, we'll see. If DTS makes this change and it affects the theaters in any negative way whatsoever, we can all kiss the format goodbye because people will not support it. As it is, SRD is on everything and is much easier to operate.  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-04-2003 08:10 PM                     I can't see what use the discs would be to anyone without the film. Who would want to just listen to the audio for a movie? Trying to sync the DTS audio to a video tape, would be a pain. When the DVD comes out (2 days after the movie closes) then you have 5.1 DD and sometimes DTS right there on the DVD. If DTS does use the system that relies on Wincrap's auto start function to load the anti-coping program into the computer, it will not affect the DTS players, because they run on good old DOS, and do not have Wincrap's auto start function.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 12-04-2003 10:24 PM                  Bruce, presumably some films have some great tunes in the soundtrack that a worth lifting. (I HATE recording them to *.wav from an analog source!) >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 12-05-2003 04:40 AM                     It looks like somebody is already doing it! I walked into an auditorium running Gothika in dts tonight and thought I heard a little something weird in a quiet scene. After listening to the crappy built-in speaker in the booth monitor I just couldn't hear it, but something possessed me to go back down and listen. Sure enough after I listened for a little while longer I realized I did hear something in the quiet scenes! None of the other guys in the theater heard anything weird, but one of them had a minidisc recorder in his car that he let me borrow, so I hooked it up to the monitor and recorded a bit of the audio so I could scrutinize it when I got home tonight. The noises are actually easier to hear when played in mono (which was the headphone output of the monitor) then they are when listening to the full 5.1 audio tracks playing together in the auditorium. Listen carefully. (MP3 audio clip)  |  IP: Logged Erick Akers Arse Kicker Posts: 201 From: Dallas, TX, USA Registered: May 2001 posted 12-05-2003 05:45 AM                     Brad, Nicely done! From the beginning of the clip I heard it very clearly, and continuously throughout the recording. The first two tones sound like a pager going off, followed by a patterned series of tones. From my background in engineering sound, I find this totally annoying and fucking unacceptable!!! I would rather hear Tape Hiss then This so called Superior Sound!! Bring back the Mag Track, if that's the way it's going to be from now on. I would demand a refund over something like this Bull Shit! There are better ways to foil both digital and analog sound recording,and besides even I can eliminate this lame attempt to prevent sound piracy through the wonderful world of DSP. Customers should be made aware of this in order to squash it now!!! Brad, Have you played the other soundtrack formats, to determine if they continued the practice on the Dolby Digital or the optical side of things?  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 12-05-2003 06:17 AM                  Brad, are you sure that those sounds are not some intentional part of the music/track? It would be interesting to see if the same sounds were also on the DD/SDDS tracks as well. >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged

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