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»	Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE » Operations » Film Handlers' Forum » Is 70mm Gone For Good? (Page 3)

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Topic: Is 70mm Gone For Good?

Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-22-2003 05:02 PM

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To keep it short and not strying it was used in quiet a few regular theatres by Paramount
3 companies built horizontal projectors
Century (there is some articles on this machine I copied and are on Marty Harts site)
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/vistavisionref.htm
Micron in italy made one
and Guamont Kalle built several (probably 4)
http://www.cinephoto.co.uk/odeon_leicester_square_20.htm
The original machine was a century C on its side with the lens mount bolted where the shutter guard went and the shutter supports on the lens mount It had no soundhead and ran double system
It was used for White Christmas and Strategic Air Command ant radio city and 8 other locations and designed and built in only several weeks
The final machine had a optical soundhead (vistavison used optical perspecta sound)
4 machines were custom built for Colonial Williamsburg (article on Marty's site as well) that featured 6 track mag instead of optical and curved gates

The MicoLambda had a seperate optical and mag reader mounted side by side under the machine on the input side and one threaded according to the track as techniramma 8 perf was magstripped
The Kalee machine I have not seen a good picture of the soundhead compartment as to how it handled the dual tracks

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Charles Everett
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: New Jersey
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posted 12-22-2003 05:14 PM

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Chicago opened in NYC at the Ziegfeld. Because the Ziegfeld is equipped for 70mm and Chicago is a musical, Miramax could have put up the money to strike a 70mm print for the "Oscar Bait" run. As it turned out the Weinstein family pushed Chicago into some suburban multiplexes day-and-date with the Ziegfeld.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

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From: Bloomington, IN, USA
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posted 12-22-2003 05:24 PM

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So, Charles...

In your opinion there was one movie released in 2003 -- "Chicago" -- worthy of one 70mm print?

I'm not exactly sensing a huge 70mm comeback.

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Bill Gabel
Film God

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From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
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posted 12-22-2003 05:33 PM

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When VistaVision opened in New York and Los Angeles, only the Paramount Theatre in Times Square and the Warner Beverly Hills were fully equipped to run that format with the Century VistaVision projectors.

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Kevin Wale
Expert Film Handler

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From: Guymon, OK USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-22-2003 05:47 PM

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The thing that always seems to come up in these types of discussions is the exhibitor leval. I agree, the theatre's themselves need to improve thier presentation before anyone will seriously look at giving them something that is even more of a challenge to deal with.

To me a good 35mm print is certainly beautiful so 70mm doesn't have to be there to make me happy if there really are ways to make 35 mil better.

I still really feel that IMAX is the future of mainstream cinema which should result in better quality all the way around because of the fact that it is a more complicated system. The operators seem to be better all around but there are also a lot fewer operators so the actual number is probably the same.

I didn't realize that the IMAX releases were still in the full widescreen.

I've been thinking a lot lately about the advantages of IMAX from a business model standpoint. It's all just thoughts at this point but if there was a wide range of mainstream releases, combined with the current special interest IMAX releases that are mostly way cool, you have a much wider range of product you could draw from. Seems to me that there would be a lot of room for creativity that isn't really there in the 35mil market. If it took off, those DLP projectors would probably see a major death until they can get thier resolutions up there with at least current 35 mm.

That also seems to me like it would be better for the studios. I still don't see why someone would want to pirate a movie from a video camera. And, if they do, it's just so they can see it after it's not in release and before it's out on video.

If digital takes off, hackers could get actual full sorround mixes during downloads. People just think there is pirating now. It will be crazy if there is ever a widespread, mass distributed digital system in the works.

I think at least once every day about whether or not today's times are ground floor leval on the next big thing with IMAX. To me those theatres are in the driver's seat if they have some really creative people in the management leval.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

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posted 12-22-2003 05:55 PM

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I think that IMAX will eventually become an old-hat novelty. It certainly seems to be enjoying a heyday now but I don't see it staying that way. Sooner or later there's going to be a string of DMR day-and-date releases that bomb because the movie is just boring and/or stupid. Whenever that happens, the studios will shy away from it.

From a studio perspective, I have always thought that home-video was the way of the future. Step back and take a look at the progression.

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Paul Linfesty
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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
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posted 12-22-2003 06:33 PM

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(deleted by author due to redundancy)

[ 12-23-2003, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Paul Linfesty ]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

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From: Lawton, OK, USA
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posted 12-22-2003 06:38 PM

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Home video may seem like the "wave of the future," but you still must have commercial movie theaters to make any movie release release "legit." The trouble is this stupid rush to "go digital" (honestly it is just "go video") would amount to the studios cutting the throats of commercial theaters and then their own throats for the long term.

The studios are doing NOTHING to drive standards above standard HDTV levels. If the image quality between commercial and home theater is identical, but viewing in the home is much cheaper, which do you think audiences will choose? At least with 35mm there is some physical separation between formats. With 70mm there is a demonstrably SUPERIOR format. Digital? Big deal. 5/70 does a much better job than any digital video format, period.

HDTV monitors and other HD related gear is still a very high end item. However, prices are falling by large margins year after year and more sophisticated products keep getting introduced --all far ahead of the pace of improvement for any commercial theater "digital projection" efforts. It won't be long before widescreen TVs and HD broadcasts are commonplace. Just look at the history of DVD. In the format's first couple years hardly anyone had it. Now over 60 million standalone players have been sold in the United States alone, DVD outsells VHS sell through titles (some movies don't even get released on VHS anymore) and DVD is fixing to surpass VHS on rentals as well --all in just a handful of years. There's a lot more money in the consumer electronics market. That fact alone will make electronics companies betray any exclusivity on technology they provide for commercial theaters.

Commerical movie theaters are far better off sticking to showing film prints. The only way I would advocate a video-based system for commercial theaters is if it were something totally different from the home and impossible to implement in the home.

In the long run special venue theaters may be the only thing left for movie exhibitors. 70mm is still the reigning king of that market regardless of all the stupid digital hype.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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posted 12-22-2003 06:58 PM

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"It was used for White Christmas and Strategic Air Command ant radio city and 8 other locations and designed and built in only several weeks"
_________________________________________________________________

Actually, it did have an optical soundhad and they made use of Perspecta Sound on those features as well. Here are rear and front photos of the westrex optical soundhead as it was used on the first Century VV machines. The optical frequency response was also very good extending almost to 20khz! They did not use interlocked mag for the premiere but interlocked optical on Westrex R-8 dummy heads that were already there.

As best as I have been able to trace back there were 30 pair made of the actual production VV machines including the 2 pair at Colonial Williamsburg. Alot of them were used at Paramount. Many of those machines and several of the early pair are still in constant service, some at Lucasfilm, and several pair at Hansard Process. My VV projector is a very close replica to the early unit except for improvements in the gate and the addition of a loop stabilizer to eliminate the possibility of film scratching.

Bill,
White Christmas did open at Radio City Music Hall. This is well documented in a number of theatre publications and in International Projectionist. The Paramount in NYC had booked something else big in at the time. The Paramount was later used for the premiere of Strategic Air Command and utilized the newer production VV machines and on film optical sound track.

Mark

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Gordon McLeod
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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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posted 12-22-2003 07:07 PM

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The VV machines ran double system at radio city and the New York Paramount.
As Warren Jenkens said the picture at RCMH was so sharp you could see the pours in J stewarts face from the front row but also the machines ate an intermitent a day

There were also 4 machines installed in toronto as well
check out the article on marty's site with the booth shots

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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posted 12-22-2003 07:16 PM

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Yea, the A type movement as used in the production machines actually saved VistaVision. The first hand built machines actually used the "C type" 1/4 inch star shaft with three taper pins through the sprocket. These pins usually sheared off by the end of the days run. Later on Brenkert movements were custom retrofitted to those few macines with a spreader type arrangement down though the end of the star shaft to secure the sprocket. Steve Krams has an interesting box of sheared off 1/4" diameter sprockets down in MIami that he showed me once. Those early movements really took a beating while the "A" type movements run and run with little trouble!!

You should be able to see everyones zits...its about the same resolving power that 5 perf 70mm has plus both Technirama and VV had far, far greater depth of field.

Mark

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

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From: Bloomington, IN, USA
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posted 12-22-2003 09:23 PM

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Bobby wrote:

quote:
There's a lot more money in the consumer electronics market. That fact alone will make electronics companies betray any exclusivity on technology they provide for commercial theaters.

Commerical movie theaters are far better off sticking to showing film prints. The only way I would advocate a video-based system for commercial theaters is if it were something totally different from the home and impossible to implement in the home.

This is what I was hinting at when I wrote:

quote:
Theatrical runs are getting shorter and shorter, as is the gap between theatrical and home-video launches. Once the enemy of the film industry, video has become something of a savior, gradually becoming the ultimate release format in more than one sense.

So with all of that in mind, the more relevant question isn't whether 70mm is gone...but, rather, how much longer does 35mm have?

To take it a step further, if theatres make the switch to dCinema the next step will be first-run in home-theatres. Cut out the middle-man.

Mark & Gord -- The VV information is interesting but don't you suppose another thread is in order?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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posted 12-22-2003 09:31 PM

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"Mark & Gord -- The VV information is interesting but don't you suppose another thread is in order?"
_________________________________________________________________
Not really as both VV and Technirama are much less expensive routes to large format cinematography and ultimately 70mm release prints.....perhaps of even better quality than 65mm in some cases due to the better depth of field thats afforded.
MArk

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Warren Smyth
Expert Film Handler

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From: Auckland ,New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-22-2003 10:02 PM

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quote:
are you refering only to cyan tracks or are there other examples of industry miss spending?

I'm not saying it was necessarily an example of miss spending, only that the motivation for cyan tracks wasn't to provide something for the audience. The improved scanning is incidental to the original aim. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on cyan tracks.

quote:
Vistavision isn't as simple as rotating the head 90% since the lazy 8 runs from the lower reel up to the upper reel.

I never said it was simple and emphasized that VV had never had the standard of development as enjoyed by 70mm. In fact you can say that Todd AO was over developed with an initial speed of 30 fps and image correction for the curved screen.

I have never been able to understand why the VV film had to run through the projector from bottom to top. Surely it could have been printed the other way. The optical sound track could have been advanced to the picture rather than retarded. As far as I can perceive, it could have run in the conventional direction. It looks almost as though the film was produced in a way to suit the labs and then someone said to Century "Ok guys go and make a projector to run this stuff" .This is pure hearsay but I once heard that Century designed and built the projector in six weeks. Perhaps someone is in a position to confirm this.

I still believe with more detailed development, a duel system projector could have been built. VV was a really great idea. I just wish I had seen it.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

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From: Bloomington, IN, USA
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posted 12-22-2003 10:12 PM

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Okay, Mark --

I could understand that but you guys are talking about the old VV projectors and where they were installed and a whole lot of other irrelevant stuff.

And now there's the question of why it runs backwards and I suppose one of you will want to answer that in this thread. Where does it end?

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