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Topic: Proposed new industry standard of ID frames on leaders

Jack Ondracek
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From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-26-2004 10:32 PM

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YES!... obviously.

quote: Scott Balko
I would do the ID frame on head only if that was the standard. Personally, I don't leave any ID frame on head or tail.

With all due respect, Scott... leaving the next guy a way to verify the sequential integrity of his print has been a defacto standard just about as long as we've been splicing studio reels together... certainly much longer than the ID frames have been posted on this board. While some here have frame-accurate changeover methods, the ability is not typically widespread. The studios have recognized that fact since films went past one reel... mainly because (I doubt) even the best manual projectionists wouldn't be consistently frame-accurate to the point of projecting that very first frame. Therefore, I'd consider it safe to assume that NOBODY would ever miss that first frame... making it much more valuable as a reassembly tool.

As for your personal practice... I'd suspect you'd change it pretty quickly if you got a print that had no ID frames and was assembled wrong... and you had about 15 minutes to get it built and mounted on a platter. The service here on the FT board is a great tool, but nobody here is obligated to continue it for any length of time. I've used it, but considering the uncompensated effort that must go into it, I'm not going to intentionally put myself into a position where I might lose a show if these guys get tired of the trouble.

If I got one of your prints, and it wasn't put back together right, and you didn't leave me any way to fix it for the sake of one solitary frame... 1/24 second, you'd appear in the "you suck" thread. And if it shut me down while I waited for a properly handled print... well, let's just say I'd be looking for the source of my troubles.

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Brad Miller
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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
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posted 09-26-2004 10:53 PM

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I would not use the term "properly handled print" on a print that had no ID frames left on it, because every print I have shipped for the last 10+ years has had no ID frames on it and they leave in pristine / like new condition. Proper handling of a print has nothing to do with sloppy breakdowns or an ID frame preference. Let's please distinguish that.

Also remember, if the ID frames are unavailable online or via fax, and assuming you don't know how to "read" the analog track, you always have the unique edgeprint code numbers on the edges of the film printed every several feet throughout the reel to provide positive verificaition with. [thumbsup]

[thumbsup]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

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posted 09-26-2004 11:23 PM

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IF, only the leader contained an ID frame, AND the person that broke down the film first went to 6K reels and then spun them down to shipping reels such that all reels are tails out, then they would be presented with no usable ID frames to assmeble their print with.

Normally I'd prefer to go to 6K reels on build-up and enjoy an all tails out print.

I've used the edge-code numbers myself to positively identify reels when leaders have been mis-spliced (wrong leader to the reel)

Do ALL film stocks contain unique edge code numbers today? That is, Kodak, Fuji and Agfa? Is it a standard for them to do so?

In order to have a standard that ultimately may depend on edgecoding to uniquely identify a reel if the one "standard" ID frame is lost due to misuse/abuse, then the edgecode requirement standard would need to be there first. What about multiplexes that get 5 prints of the same title and don't match the film can to the particular print they are tearing down two-weeks later so the edge codes no longer match?

My question to those that hold their multiple ID frams near and dear....what are you going to do if a film balances their reels such that most or all are on fade-outs and fade-ins? Do you become artistic and cut the fades too in order to get a visible frame? Or do you pay attention to the leaders and tails and note that they uniquely go to their respective reels.

So long as the one ID frame per reel is held sacred and is preserved with the print on each reel, all reels may be properly identified and the ID frame at the end of the reel is not necessary.

Steve

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Josh Kirkhart
Expert Film Handler

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From: Austin/Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 09-27-2004 12:03 AM

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YES, you can rebuild that print the way you described.

BUT, if this is only about the one theatre experience, leave no reference frames. Let the next guy/gal decide to leave a reference frame if they like.

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Steve Kraus
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posted 09-27-2004 12:32 AM

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There is no such thing as a subsequent user leaving a reference frame. If it's not contiguous to the leader (that is, if there is a splice between a frame and leader black) then it proves nothing. You'd have to assume that it's the correct frame and then you might as well just assume leaders are on correctly. Only an uncut frame serves the function.

Oh, and that function is, in my way of thinking, twofold: ID the reel (which we all agree can usually be done if need be by other means) AND act as a red flag, batantly obvious to all but the comatose, that there's an incorrectly leadered reel. The backup methods of ID are just that: Backup methods. Although if a computer was handy near where the work was being done and it was one that was available here on F-T I could see maybe taking a glance at that when dealing with a no-ID-frame print, even if there was no reason to be suspicious. But more than likely most people are going to build as leadered.

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Chris Hipp
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posted 09-27-2004 12:37 AM

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If you received a print with all of the leaders rolled up in the bottom of the film cans and no markings whatsoever, BUT each head leader had one ID frame on it, could you assemble the print properly? Yes or no? If you cannot, explain specifically why.

yes, Just identify each reel with the heads and then assemble.

Hopefully this is still on topic, but assuming that you fill out some sort of print inspection sheet when you build up, you simply write down how many splices were made in each reel(hopefully only for lab splices). Then when you go to tear down you look at the sheet and you will know where the reel change splices are and where the defect splices are.

I don't know how that method could be standardized but it is easy for a theater to do it.

It is not necessary to leave the frames on. I have never seen a reel change in the middle of a camera shot and I have never seen a lab splice at a camera change.

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Brad Miller
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posted 09-27-2004 12:38 AM

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Chris, double check your post because I think you misunderstood the question to be "if you got a print with no ID frames".

The question is if you got a used print and the tail leaders all had no ID frames, but every head leader DID have an ID frame, could you assemble it properly? The part about the leaders being in the bottom of the film cans is just to take the example to an extreme situation.

quote:
What about multiplexes that get 5 prints of the same title and don't match the film can to the particular print they are tearing down two- weeks later so the edge codes no longer match?

That's the first solid reason on this thread I have seen as to why an ID frame is needed. Still though, the odds of ALL the ID frames on every head leader being lost AND the multiplex breaking down the print to the wrong cans has got to be pretty rare. Even if on a 6 reel print one of the head ID frames somehow got cut off, so long as the other 4 were there (reel 1 doesn't count), that's still positive identification. Agreed?

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Charles Phillips
Film Handler

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From: St. Charles, IL
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 09-27-2004 12:49 AM

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Yes a print can be built using a single id frame. I've done it for three prints for the past week b/c of leaders/tails misplaced on reels.

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Jack Ondracek
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posted 09-27-2004 02:56 AM

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quote:
So long as there is one id frame left on the heads, the people "who have always done it this way" (back from the days when there was long quiet stationary shots at the beginning and end of each reel) will have their precious ID frame crutch,

Mea culpa! [Razz]

[Razz]

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Joshua Lott
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posted 09-27-2004 03:18 AM

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Yes... And I had to just a few weeks ago.

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Carl Martin
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posted 09-27-2004 03:27 AM

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yes, a print w/ 1 id frame at each head can be assembled.

while it's probably true that most any "big" release film could survive losing a frame or three at each r/c, it really isn't true for all films. in particular, a lot of the recent political talking head documentaries have had talking over the r/c's. when i've seen these at theaters that leave a head and tail id frame (and use opaque tape) there have been definite interruptions and elisions. very annoying.

i can often distinguish lulls and ambient noise in the soundtrack from "content", but i generally leave no id frames whatsoever when building, to be sure. if it looks like there's dialogue, i try to match up the incoming and outgoing soundtracks. some films are rather sloppily edited/printed though. on a recent film, i left 1 frame at the head to eliminate a repetition in the soundtrack. at the next reel, i saw i would have had to include a number of frames of black in the built print to get all the sound in (i didn't, though).

labeling heads and tails and reattaching them correctly during breakdown is a no-brainer. i know people f*ck it up but i don't understand how.

if your print comes in 15 minutes before the show, i agree id frames can help speed things. but sometimes you just have to accept that you aren't superhuman, the show will be a little late, and it's not your fault or the previous theater's. if you get the print 15 minutes after the show start time, it's the courier's fault for being late. same thing if you get it 15 minutes before. the courier was late. you do your best.

carl

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Matthew Jaro
Film Handler

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From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
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posted 09-27-2004 09:26 AM

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Yes you can assemble a print. It is a question of how long it takes to do so. With SDDS tracks, it is often next to impossible to read the edge codes, and some prints I have seen did not have edge codes. I have received prints with the leaders and tails tacked on with masking tape and it is a real mess to match things up with a seven reel film. This is just the reality. At disassembly time, you want the correct tails on the correct reels no matter how you received the print. Certainly a frame marking standard would help. Currently, the reference frames for both heads and tails are very helpful.

Finally, most reel ends are at fade-outs, scene changes or quiet moments. They are seldom in the middle of a scene with dialog. Consequently, I think that deleting a frame at these points would have minimal impact. I vote to retain the current method (one reference frame for each leader and tail) until an ID system is in use.

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John Pytlak
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posted 09-27-2004 12:58 PM

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quote: Steve Guttag
Do ALL film stocks contain unique edge code numbers today? That is, Kodak, Fuji and Agfa? Is it a standard for them to do so?

Kodak was the first to print unique, comprehensive manufacturing ID along the edge of the raw stock, beginnning about the time Kodak VISION Color Print Film was introduced a few years ago. Magenta is used on Kodak VISION Color Print Film so as not to interfere with the reading of SDDS digital soundtracks.

Fuji developed their capability after Kodak, but now also prints full unique edgeprint ID.

AFAIK, Agfa does not yet print an edgecode that is unique to each roll.

quote: Matthew Jaro
With SDDS tracks, it is often next to impossible to read the edge codes, and some prints I have seen did not have edge codes.

Hint: If reading the magenta edgecode through the cyan SDDS track is difficult, try using a green filter to make the letters clearer.

I agree with Brad. Ideally no ID frames should be left, to totally preserve continuity. But as a compromise, a single ID frame left on the head leader should be all that's necessary.

Any proposed standard or recommended practice can be submitted to the SMPTE Projection Technology Committee for consideration. Pat Moore is the current chairman:

http://www.smpte.org/engineering_committees/

http://www.smpte.org/engineering_committees/technology_committees/

quote:
Theatrical Projection Technology (P3)

The application of the General Scope as it pertains to the mechanisms and practices used in the non-television distribution and presentation of motion pictures. Also included are the specification of image areas intended for projection, projection reels and containers, and print identification and leaders.

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Bill Gabel
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From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
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posted 09-27-2004 01:30 PM

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Yes, You could return that print to a runable condition. If you had one frame to use as a ID on the head or tail leader. When I was training to use platters. I was told to leave one frame as an ID on each leader. The only exception to that rule for studio projectionists came from the studios when you ran a premiere or special all media type screening, cast and crew screening. (I'm not talking about those sneak previews or other radio promotion screenings that you guys do) We were told never to leave an ID frame on those prints. Since they were special EK/Wetgate showprints they were used for special venue screenings. (DGA, WGA, Academy or guild screenings). That came down from the studios post-production departments. When you do double-system screenings at theatres with platters. You can't leave ID frames on the leaders. Otherwise your mag or digital reproducer will be out of sync.
As to the original post, my answer was towards having the 'LFOA' marker printed on the frame and changeovers. I have never had a problem of it being seen on screen.

Sorry Brad, If you did not like my first post or answer.

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Brad Miller
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From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
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posted 09-27-2004 02:08 PM

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Matthew, the one ID on head and one ID on tail is common, but by no means any sort of standard. (That's the point here, to try and find something everyone can agree upon, then publish some documentation on this site, then the proposal can go on to other places such as John Pytlak mentioned if so desired.) FYI - I get more prints in with no ID frames at all or 2+ ID frames on each leader to believe that the vast majority of people only leave one on each leader.

Bill, on this particular thread comments are welcome, but only if the question has been answered in the post. That's why I wiped your earlier post and not this one. [Wink]

[Wink]

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