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Author Topic: Proposed new industry standard of ID frames on leaders Tommie Evans Expert Film Handler Posts: 116 From: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK Registered: Sep 2004 posted 09-27-2004 04:36 PM                     Yes! you can assembly a print correctly using only one ID frame on the 'head' leader. How difficult or cost-consuming is it for labs to print the ID frame somewhere on the leader or tail, may-be between the head/picture - foot/picture frames? Could they not print a picture of both head and tail frames somewhere on or inside the shipping cans or box? I guess someone somewhere will always cut into the reel  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-28-2004 12:09 AM                     Yes...you could. And you could do it quite easily, provided the reels are heads out. Tails out complicates matters somewhat but it could still be done. I was happiest when I received a print that was tails out. If I received a used print that was tails out but only had the ID on the head leader -- and none of the leaders actually attached -- I would be highly annoyed at having to rewind all those reels to be heads out just so I could identify which was which. In such an instance, I would be grateful if ID frames were left on both head and tail leaders. I personally used to do it the way that Brad is promoting but, then, I would also put the film back together properly before shipping it out.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-28-2004 02:34 AM                        having already answered the question, i won't do so again. obviously this wouldn't be an issue if prints always had their leaders correctly reattached upon receipt. in the case of the leaders not being attached at all, there is clearly the potential for film damage beyond a frame or two. encouraging proper reattachment of the leaders is a more important issue than leaving id frames or not. someone who receives a print with leaders unattached (or mixed up) and no id frames, having to go to greater effort at buildup, might make a mental note never to let a print leave the theater in that state. that is, not leaving id frames might encourage more consciencious film handling. carl  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-28-2004 09:10 AM                     If one builds upt to 6K reels when recieveing a tail up print then to the platter ID frame at the head only requires a second rewind The best is at both ends  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 09-28-2004 11:59 AM                     Actually, with the situation of a tails up print and only ID frames at the head...you do run the risk of a second rewind on only some reels. Lets say you feel that tail of R-3 is correct so you start your 6K build up...rewind R-3 onto the 6K reel and at the head you will either find it is indeed R-3 or not...if it is, proceed to R-2... and so forth. The probability of an incorrect reel will decrease as one builds up. Also the last reel will typically (though not always) be the only one with end credits so it is pretty well identified. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-28-2004 12:37 PM                     Gordon, you seemed to imply that you could positively assemble a print with an ID frame at the head leader only, but you were not clear. I'm looking for a flat out YES or NO, or the post will be deleted like the others who did not directly answer the question before making further discussion.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-28-2004 04:03 PM                     Gordon's statement is his opinion of which is the best way. FWIW, I think that's valid. Or is it more important to simply agree? (If this post gets deleted or edited then I guess we'll all know the answer to that question.) As far as the example, I don't think anybody on here is going to say that they would not be able to build that print. We're flogging a dead horse here. Life is complicated, so let's complicate the example and really put this idea to the test: A. What happens if some head leaders and some tail leaders are missing from those cans? Might it not be helpful if all of the leaders that DID make it into the cans had a reference frame? B. What if the example were modified so that the print arrived tails-out with leaders attached. With no ID frames on tail leaders, we would have to rewind every reel to be sure that the previous theatre re-attached the leaders to their respective reels, whereas a reference frame would provide a definitive answer in less time, with less effort. There is always more than one solution to a problem and it doesn't always come down to one solution being the best. I think it's a great idea to be searching for ways to improve presentations, but I don't truly believe that the "missing frames" are hurting presentations as much as poor splicing technique, improper masking, focus issues, scratches, dust, image instability or volume settings. It seems odd to me that THIS should be the current fixation when there are so many more urgent problems out there that are actually being noticed by customers. As for being specific -- I asked about specific examples of reel-changes that are being hurt by these "missing frames." What crucial action or sound is contained on the two frames at the changeover point? Can nobody provide even one example?  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-28-2004 04:09 PM                        "Super Size Me" and "Spellbound" (both shot on video) are both examples of poorly edited films where the loss of two frames at every reel change is noticeable. It's not horribly bad, but, having plattered both of those titles while leaving one reference frame on each leader, I can say that the presentation would have been improved if I hadn't left reference frames at all.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-28-2004 04:09 PM                     Thanks, Scott. What crucial information was contained on those frames? How do you know that leaving the frames in would have made the cut less noticeable? Did you try it on another print, or did you see it at another theatre where the frames were left in? Or are you operating under an assumption?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-28-2004 05:21 PM                     Manny, you have now made your post a couple of times and I am respectfully asking you to exercise a little patience. I'm sure when Scott answers it will be due to a jump in the dialogue, because it is generally impossible to tell if there are missing frames picture-wise at a changeover due to the camera angle change. With you being a video editor, you should know better that if you remove 2 frames (do it on a 24FPS timeline) from a line of dialogue that there is a noticeable jump cut. If that has not yet occured to you, crack open your Final Cut Pro and do it. You will soon find that so long as there isn't any dialogue right where you chop out the 2 frames that it generally goes unnoticed, but it's those reel changes where there IS dialogue going on that is the problem. Remember, the sound is cut ahead of the picture, so any reel that begins without at least a full second before the dialogue starts will have a jump in the audio. This is becoming more and more common these days. In the meantime, have some patience. I, and probably others, will make some example posts as they turn up. Also, once someone answers the question put forth, if they have any concerns at that point they may address it, but you seem on a mission of attacking me here without being patient enough for me or anyone else to provide this "proof" you demand. Then you are making a stink about other issues with presentation. Well guess what, if some theater runs a print of "Manny's Big Birthday", then I get it after them to run, I couldn't care less if their theater had blown speakers, or a torn screen, or a burned lens or any of that! All I care about is how MY presentation is affected, and if there are missing frames at the changeover and the ends of the reels have dialogue or a rhythmic beat of music, then that does indeed screw up my presentation (amongst other film damage of course). THAT is what this is about. Please be patient.  |  IP: Logged Edward Jurich Master Film Handler Posts: 305 From: Las Vegas USA Registered: Jul 2003 posted 09-28-2004 10:51 PM                     Assuming a new print that has not yet been cut, I always check the optical track for modulation before cutting. If there is sound on the track I don't cut any frames off. It's simple to keep tails and leaders in order by taping them back onto the empty reel and marking them 1, 2, 3 etc.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-29-2004 12:21 AM                     Can a print be built up with only one ID fram on the head/leader? Yes! Is it a better way to do things? Yes! Would *I* like to get prints that have only one ID frame? Yes! However, Brad and some other people have a great luxury of being able to be choosy about who works in their booth. He has more time to train people to work the way HE wants. If one of his guys screws up, he can spank the guy. I, on the other hand, have to work with college students. As good as they can be, sometimes, I have to take what I can get. I only have a couple-three hours per week to train them. When I can train them, it's between classes. I require my workers to do the best job they know how but, let's face it: They just aren't going to be as professional as the guys Brad hires. I NEED to be able to hand my guys a set of keys to the booth and be reasonably certain that they can do their jobs with a minimum of intervention on my part. If I can't I'm only letting myself in for another 15 hour day ON TOP OF a week where I'm probably going to be working 50+ hours. I am probably going to have to make a few compromises to make things easier for my guys and, ultimately, myself. If I got a print that didn't have ID frames on the tails I doubt if I would complain. However, if a print has changeovers where one or two lost frames would be a problem, why not just designate it, "TIGHT CHANGEOVERS! NO ID FRAMES!" The only problem there would be getting people to honor the request... Which is the same problem you will have getting people to honor the request of making only one ID frame.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-29-2004 12:47 AM                     The problem is, by the time somebody realizes the changeover is tight and would be damaged by leaving ID frames, the world has built them all up. Prevention is the best cure.  |  IP: Logged Brent Neal Jones Expert Film Handler Posts: 211 From: Ennis, T.X., USA Registered: Nov 2001 posted 09-29-2004 03:34 AM                     I say, re-equip your booth with a cue dot cutter like I did. This is an uphill battle, Brad I'm sorry to say, unless you always run brand new film or well handled film change-over. I enjoy change-over as much as the next man, believe me...so I've just learned to deal with this problem. It is an annoyance with missing pieces of dialog, yes but, you can still make the best of it by making the smoothest changeover possible.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-29-2004 04:13 AM                        i trust you're kidding about "cutting" cue dots. anyways, i looked through my notes of the past 4 months, and these films had dialog (or other significant soundtrack) elision at one or more reel changes: godzilla (original version, "new" print), imelda, america's heart and soul, the corporation, my sister maria. i also remember spellbound, though that was longer ago. i should note that i didn't handle these prints (edit: except corporation, which came from another theater on 6k's). i simply watched them at other theaters. it's possible many frames were missing at reel changes. i left out films i saw projected changeover, even if it was 6k changeover. carl [ 09-30-2004, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Carl Martin ]  |  IP: Logged

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