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Author Topic: Proposed new industry standard of ID frames on leaders Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-02-2004 01:31 AM                     Ok boys, here's something else to add to the equation. Before prints are rejuvenated and sent overseas, did you know that any ID frames are cut off at the specific instruction of the studio? It's true, I saw it first hand while visiting Technicolor. That is what the studios are ordering, so that is what they must do.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-02-2004 03:11 AM                     By similar logic -- Just because they're going to junk half the prints as they return to the depot, should we go ahead and trash them ourselves? That's just dumb. If the ID frames are there, they might as well leave them alone so there could be some purpose to it. (Of course, the ID frames would already have served some purpose prior to being returned to the depots in the first place.) All that aside, it seems as though there is a whole different logic applied to the "rest of the world." Didn't some overseas markets get to run HARRY POTTER or LOTR with intermissions while the rest of us were ordered to run it through without a break? (Patience of Job.)  |  IP: Logged David Buckley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 525 From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand Registered: Aug 2004 posted 10-02-2004 08:01 AM                        Newbie question - whats an ID frame. I thought I was just being dumb (as well as newbie), but after Brad noting we overseasers dont get them, I feel I may be being deprived.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-02-2004 08:09 AM                     Manny, Haven't you been to most theatres? The plan of junking half of the prints have already been implimented...they don't even wait until the film has finished its run....heck most times they don't let it get to the first weekend! Steve  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-02-2004 08:49 AM                        Brad -- is there a reason for that stupid policy? I'm all in favor of removing "accordian splices" and such, but removing ID frames is just stupid. If a print has uncut leaders, do they just randomly remove a few frames at the end and beginning of each reel just to make it match the others? How, exactly, are prints "rejuvenated"? Is it a chemical treatment or is it a thorough manual inspection (or both)?  |  IP: Logged Thomas Procyk Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1842 From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-02-2004 10:12 AM                     quote: Brad Miller Before prints are rejuvenated and sent overseas, did you know that any ID frames are cut off at the specific instruction of the studio? Forget overseas, when we got a print of Finding Nemo second-run, I noticed this too. Any ID frames were removed, and the film was ultrasonically spliced back on to the leader. Soundtracks were way off, so I didn't leave any ID frames and used them all (since I'd be the one breaking it down and I've built up and broken down 2 prints of this before). The result was still a HUGE jump in sound and action at the reel 1/2 changeover: The kids are going to "The Dropoff" and Nemo is trying to catch up. He's supposed to say, "Hey! You guys! Wait up!" -- Instead, it was "Hey! You g***ait up!" 1 or 2 frames is ok, but it looks like 6 or 7 were lost in this little ditty. =TMP=  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-02-2004 12:29 PM                     Scott, the prints are inspected from one end to the other through a footage counter to make sure there isn't any missing footage (more than a frame or two - can't remember the limit), the leaders are ultrasonically or double taped back together (ID frames lost), the print is rewashed, then the print is Photoguarded, then the print is physically screened.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-03-2004 05:08 AM                        From another thread on the same topic.... quote: What is needed is an obvious clear frameline seperating the last frame of picture from the leader, both head and tail. That makes it easy for the lazy platter people and the sloppy changeover guys. I say, make it MORE difficult, not easier. Why protect the lazy and sloppy? LET them fall on their faces....maybe management will get the hint and get rid on them; that will be better all around for the prints and for presentation! Those who have to deal with prints in second run and the patron who has plunked down $10 for a ticket will thank us.  |  IP: Logged Jeremy Fuentes Mmmm, Dr. Pepper! Posts: 1168 From: Corpus Christi, TX United States Registered: Jan 2004 posted 10-03-2004 12:54 PM                     Frank, I'm sure the customers will be in a hurry to thank you, when the cheap labor is fired, and ticket prices are raised, to afford the good projectionists. Sorry guys, back on topic..  |  IP: Logged Charles Phillips Film Handler Posts: 39 From: St. Charles, IL Registered: Jul 2004 posted 10-03-2004 09:39 PM                     quote: David Buckley Newbie question - whats an ID frame. An ID frame is a frame left on either the head or tail when it is removed for build up onto a platter. It is just one way to identify a reel in case of a mix up.  |  IP: Logged Mark J. Marshall Film God Posts: 3188 From: New Castle, DE, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 10-04-2004 04:10 PM                    quote: Chris Hipp was the last to post If you received a print with all of the leaders rolled up in the bottom of the film cans and no markings whatsoever, BUT each head leader had one ID frame on it, could you assemble the print properly? Yes or no? Yes. And yes the one ID frame on the head seems like an excellent compromise to me. Ideally, I agree there should be no need for ID frames, but the "1 frame on the head" idea is a good compromise.  |  IP: Logged Jeffry L. Johnson Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 809 From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 10-05-2004 12:13 PM                        We could eliminate the desire for ID frames if every reel was uniquely identified and marked with a footage count. I remember seeing prints in the early 1980's that were marked this way. Reel one at "Picture Start" was edge labeled "A0000" and incremented "0001" every foot. (The first frame of picture (FFP) was "A0012".) Reel two started "B0000", three "C0000" and so on. This system instantly identifies the reel number and allows the determination of the length of missing footage at any splice. If this could be printed in magenta (like the manufacturer's latent image ID code), then this shouldn't interfere with SDDS.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 10-05-2004 01:15 PM                        Almost all 35mm Kodak VISION Color Intermediate Film is manufactured with EASTMAN KEYKODE printed along the edge: http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/postProduction/keykode/35mm.pdf http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/keykode/id.shtml So the duplicate negatives used for printing already have unique sequential footage numbers latent-image printed along the edge of the film. Labs could use the contact printer edgelights to print-through the KEYKODE onto every release print, EXCEPT that it would be printed through as light letters against a dark background, which would likely interfere with the reading of the Sony SDDS digital track, even if printed with green light (magenta dye). AFAIK, the reel/footage numbers that Jeffry remembers were ink printed onto the edge of the duplicate negatives. The issue with today's SDDS track would be the same.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-05-2004 01:34 PM                        Interesting point, John. If SDDS is the only issue, then why not print the Keycode numbers (which I agree would be useful) through on non-SDDS prints? It's been ages (okay, maybe six months) since I last handled a print with an SDDS track, but I don't believe I've ever seen (or at least I don' t remember seeing) a 35mm release print with Keycode numbers printed through (not even answer prints, surprisingly). (Yes, I know that this is getting off topic and Brad will surely delete my post very soon.)  |  IP: Logged Brian Guckian Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 594 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Apr 2003 posted 10-05-2004 08:43 PM                     Mr. Norwood, I'll save you those worries by getting the topic back on track right now... In answer to Brad's question - yes. However I'm with other posters who raised the time / additional winding issues that might occur should there be only head ID frames. This issue is stemming from Editors not balancing reels properly and is something that needs to be to taken up with the ACE and also the MPSE. Not only is it poor technical practice but it's bad artistically as well. Non-linear Editing systems are the baddie here, as they allow editors cut and play back their work continuously, without reel changes. I believe the existing head + tail ID frame convention is foolproof as long as the reels are correctly balanced.  |  IP: Logged

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