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Author Topic: Proposed new industry standard of ID frames on leaders Ian Joseph Parfrey Film Handler Posts: 56 From: Bollier Queensland Australia Registered: Sep 2004 posted 09-29-2004 04:44 PM                     I've been told that I have finished commenting on this but I have one question which no one seems to have considered. What about the scourge of "Rejuvenated Prints"????? How many of those have chopped frames head and Tail??  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-29-2004 07:03 PM                        Sure it's possible to make up a film with an ID on the head-end only, or no IDs at all, as long as too much footage isn't missing. Occasinally we'll get a print where the previous "projectionist" has just cut wherever he feels like it, thereby rendering the IDs useless anyway. In that case, it's easy to match up the soundtrack. quote: Carl Martin i trust you're kidding about "cutting" cue dots. Carl - A cue cutter is a little thingy with 4 holes it it that correspond to film frames, along with a little round pencil-like thing with a blade on the bottom. You put the film into the holder with the soundtrack facing you and the head-end on the left, then you insert the pencil-type thing into the holes and "twirl" it. This makes round cues on the film. It is a bad solution at best, but infinitely better than the old practice of scratching Xs or slash-marks across the frame. We used to have one of these in our booth but I haven't seen it in years.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 09-29-2004 07:44 PM                     Ian, NOTHING can be done about repertory / rejuvenated prints. Once the film is cut, it's cut, end of story. Since you are in Australia, I presume you have to deal with that a lot, but that is not the point of this thread.  |  IP: Logged Barry Martin Expert Film Handler Posts: 203 From: Newington, CT USA Registered: Jul 2002 posted 09-30-2004 12:52 AM                        Yes, it is possible and only slightly annoying in the worst case scenario for me to build a print having only a head ID frame. Studios/labs should realize that printing a reference frame and framelines on real changes that fade to dark/nothing would not only solve this entire question of id frames but also improve the quality prints maintain throughout their travels. If we F-T members do adopt a compromise I think it would be best if we promoted it ourselves. Obviously someone would contact the chains to request the policy be put in place and why, but among us we could pro-actively attack the problem by including a note in every print we break down with only a head ID as to why we did it and why it should continue. Something generic copied from here and just printed/written out and added to the can. I know I'd donate 2-3 pieces of paper per week and some ink in the hopes that most of my prints arrive intact.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-30-2004 04:16 AM                        quote: Mike Blakesley Carl - A cue cutter is a little thingy with 4 holes it it that correspond to film frames, along with a little round pencil-like thing with a blade... ok, i would call that "scribing", not "cutting" (but what do i know; i've never done it). regardless, making new cues is rarely justified, and doesn't have much to do with the present discussion as far as i can tell. carl  |  IP: Logged Wolff King Morrow Master Film Handler Posts: 490 From: Denton, TX, USA Registered: Feb 2004 posted 09-30-2004 11:56 PM                        I went with Brad's proposal and only left an ID frame on the heads for today's builds of Shark Tale and Ladder 49. Actually I got a little nervous because I had to build while being filmed for a documentary student project. I guess there's no better start for a proposed standard, eh?  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 10-01-2004 09:53 AM                     Not sure if I answered Brad's question yet, so YES, a print can be built with only an ID frame on the head. Here is an idea though. Apparantly editors aren't willing to properly balance the reels so losing one frame won't be noticable at reel changes. It is also not practical to print ID frames in the leaders for whatever reason (going by what JP has said here, correct me if I'm wrong). So, why can't editors add one extra frame to the beginning and end of every reel? What I mean is that instead of 24 frames (or whatever it is) between the last changeover cue and the end of the reel make it 25. The last frame would NOT be meant to be projected. A changeover house doing the c/o properly wouldn't show it and platter houses would leave that frame as an ID. Doing it this way would prevent the labs from having to do anything different and would allow editors to cut their movies whoever they wanted.  |  IP: Logged Matthew Jaro Film Handler Posts: 74 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Registered: Jul 2003 posted 10-01-2004 03:31 PM                        Adding an extra frame won't work, because projection of new prints using changeovers with the leaders uncut would now have an extra frame instead of missing a frame. So we would still have a problem.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 10-01-2004 03:39 PM                        Some have suggested labs print the extra "ID" frame WITHIN each leader. Unfortunately, this would require making a duplicate negative of the ID frames and inserting it into the leader, adding to production time. Some movies that used "Digital Intermediate" have experimented with putting an ID frame in the leader, since the whole reel is printed onto film from a digital file, rather than a cut and spliced negative.  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 10-01-2004 04:39 PM                     quote: Matthew Jaro Adding an extra frame won't work, because projection of new prints using changeovers with the leaders uncut would now have an extra frame instead of missing a frame. So we would still have a problem. Not if the changeover cues are placed as if the extra frame isn't there, as I suggested in my first post.  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 10-01-2004 04:47 PM                        ...and just what do you propose we do about the sound tracks where you want to add an extra frame? Just ignore that that frame exists and continue the sound tracks into the leaders unchanged? Or should we just eliminate the usefulness of the pull-ups altogether?  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 10-01-2004 05:09 PM                     Don't the soundtracks continue into the leader anyway, hence the method of matching waveforms? My idea is only to duplicate the image of the last frame, not the soundtrack.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-01-2004 09:34 PM                     Despite all the hype about perfect changeovers, I suspect those extra frames would hit the screen in a lot of changeover theatres. (Still being patient.)  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 10-02-2004 12:13 AM                    Adding an ID frame within the leader even without DI can be easily done by having the negative cutter take frame of negative adjacent to the cut of the first shot. It should be substantially identical even if not precisely so. Any large difference automatically means someone has had a serious lapse of judgement on balancing reels and deciding where the break should be. In the rare case where such a frame cannot be used (perhaps because it's part of some other shot) just steal one from an unused take that looks similar. All of this is much cheaper and faster than optical printing. Although...as I type this I'm thinking: Still camera loaded with appropriate stock and a Duplikin. The idea there is that it doesn't really have to be a precise duplicate of the first or last frame. It only needs to look like it enough for someone looking at it on a bench or maybe with a hand lens. Realizing that fact greatly increases options. I presume that a single frame cut in the cut negative is okay and will survive shooting an IP and running off a few EK prints.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-02-2004 01:22 AM                     I propossed that years ago and the labs said the negative with the leaders was often prepared ahead f the master cut negative so it was not possible bottom line the existing system of a head and tail id frames works and since most films recoup to the filmaker the greater return on recycled prints exhibited off shore then those requirements rate more consideration  |  IP: Logged

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