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Author Topic: horz scratches Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 04-15-2008 10:53 AM                        No, sorry. Mike is not dead on. We only use soundtracks up on our AW3. Besides, I was right there and I can guarantee that it was the roller that scratched it and not the deck itself. Brad, that ad was ran by the roller only once. I will post pictures of the misthreaded roller later. Chau. Andrés  |  IP: Logged Bill Enos Film God Posts: 2081 From: Richmond, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-15-2008 11:23 AM                     I usually see it on the base side, still from the same source, not much else in the film path that can make crosswise scratches. I don't see how a roller can make scratches across the width of the film.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 04-16-2008 02:15 AM                     those scratches on the emulsion side looks like roller scratching - like if the film is making face to face contact with the inner part of the, or "a" roller...for I see a pattern of sorts..like a "footprint" being pressed on that film.  |  IP: Logged Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 04-16-2008 03:22 PM                        Gentlemen, Here are the pics. My setup: Misthreaded take up arm roller. Various angles: In the following shot it is particularly obvious that the swivel roller is attached to the arm via an axle. Unless stuck (which is not the case) there is no way that the roller cannot spin freely. Hope this helps clarify things a bit. Andrés  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 04-16-2008 11:29 PM                     You've got the wrong roller assembly on that arm since it can't swivel some on the shaft. The assembly should have a trangular stop in the center to allow restricted left/right swivel, but enough to allow roller alignment so the film path can be square coming from the roller traveller on the tower. Or, I notice that you got a clip on the upper shaft on that roller assembly. Wonder if that's jamming the swivel action of the roller assembly and you need a new clip installed. Also, how are ther other arms in your booth up there - all or any experiencing this problem as well? -Monte  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 04-17-2008 01:53 AM                     But again I am not convinced solely because the scratches cover the entire width of the image, yet in the pictures of the misthread the edge of the roller flange only covers half of the width of the film. I will try and remember to intentionally misthread a platter with a virgin trailer tomorrow like that and see what results I get. The ONLY time I have ever seen this happen though was when there was a knick on the top of the keeper bracket and the shaft that goes through the end of the arm was overtightened into the keeper, making it so the roller could not pivot back and forth effortlessly. I still think that is your problem.  |  IP: Logged Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 04-18-2008 02:26 PM                        Monte: You are right. The roller on the pictures has the centered triangular stop. It is barely seen because of the flash, but that is the correct roller. See clearer picture following: Besides, this has happened in different AW3s and in different buildings. The rollers are all the same. Trust me. It´s not something sooooo simple. I covered my bases long time ago on that one. Brad: I guess you didn´t remember to scratch a virgen trailer on purpose, did you? Otherwise we would have seen the results right here. I understand why you don´t take my word. It makes perfect sense. But trust me, I´ve investigated this a long time ago (in a galaxy far far away), and I´ve done my math. That is what causes that kind of scratch. I´m sure that if you try that yourself, we´ll meet on the other end of the tunnel. Have a nice weekend, guys .  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 04-18-2008 08:02 PM                     Ok, I tried to re-create what Andres is seeing. I tried. I really tried. First off, it proved to be oddly difficult to get the roller to sit happily in that position of being misthreaded. Essentially you have to thread to the back side of the roller and then through the keeper, rather than threading from underneath and over as everyone I've ever met does. In the 10 or however many years since Christie made these new style keepers, I have never seen anyone make this misthread...but Andres is right if you DO make such a blatant misthread, it IS POSSIBLE that it can run that way. Even at that, my roller kept wanting to flip back into the normal operating mode. I had to keep stopping and re-starting the projector and angling the roller just right to get an attempt that actually did stick. So getting over the fact that whoever this projectionist of his is that keeps making such a huge misthreading error (he should just be fired in my opinion), I ran a virgin trailer 3 times with it misthreaded like this. Yes THREE TIMES, and the best I could produce was a tiny intermittent dash scratch down the center of the image. In no way did it reach the sides...and did I mention it took 3 times to be able to make enough of a mark reasonably noticeable? I am amazed that such an awful misthread barely damaged the film at all. Regardless the image that was shown earlier couldn't have come from that roller after just one pass. I just don't see how because first the picture edge of the film does not scrape up against anything no matter how far you twist that roller, and second I tried my damndest to re-create it. Here is the picture of what happened to the film after 3 passes being misthreaded exactly like Andres showed above in his picture. Do you see it? Look at the arrow. Yeah I know, it's so minor you can't see anything! Here is a pixel-for-pixel crop of the same image showing the scratch. See what I mean? Andres, I am not saying you are wrong, but there must be something else going on here that you are either missing, or there must be something pretty different between our two platters. Is the edge of your roller seriously chewed up perhaps?  |  IP: Logged Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 04-21-2008 07:09 PM                        Hey Brad, I apreciate all your efforts to recreate this damage scenario. You have my word. I am not crazy. I am not making this up. I can guarantee that that roller can stay like that and can make a lot more damage than what you have there. We are, of course, talking about decent flanges, and not all chewed up or anything like that. I repeat: this has happened in different AW3, being threaded by different people in different countries. But oh well! I guess I cannot prevent you from filing this one as an urban myth. Once again, I apreciate you trying and no, I am not crazy!  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 04-21-2008 08:14 PM                     I don't know, I'm out of ideas other than to simply tell your guys to look over their threading before they start the movie. If the film is seated on that roller properly before the projector starts, no way will it jump off of the roller once things start moving. Even at that, multiple attempts of mine to start the projector knocked the roller back into place just by starting it. Your guys are extra-talented.  |  IP: Logged Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 04-22-2008 05:48 PM                        That´s for sure: this misthread tends to correct itself. Once it is properly seated there is no way it´ll come out. However it might not correct itself during a whole print. Yep. "My" guys are very talented! (And by "very talented" I mean very young, very underpaid, never-hanging-around-long-enough-to-get-good-at-it.) Andrés This IS NOT an Urban Myth Briano  |  IP: Logged Tim Lewis Film Handler Posts: 12 From: Okatie, SC, US Registered: Dec 2006 posted 04-22-2008 11:14 PM                     wow, i wish i had run across this thread earlier. i've been having these same exact problems in my theatre. Brad, my scratches look exactly like yours, running mainly through the center, and the best i can tell the same amount of scratches that you got happens in one showing, but then it keeps happening so by the time the film leaves, it's shredded all to hell. we, like Andres, go soundtrack up, and all these scratches are definitely emulsion side. when we were having this problem after first opening, Jim Dukes himself came by and checked things out and found nothing definitive. he did find a worn groove on the bracket (see picture.) my tech, whose opinion i greatly respect (as does Jim), dismissed this thinking you could only get vertical scratches if the film was misthreaded through there like this. we also did some test running trying to get it to stay misthreaded, and like Brad, we were not able to get it to stay there. so basically, i can see how Brad can't wrap his head around how this would happen (i'm with you there), but somehow it is happeneing at my theatre as well. obviously, my first task shall be to talk to my employees and see if i can get it through their thick skulls that it's usually a good idea to not have the film falling off the rollers while in use. of course they were trained to make sure the film does not fall off of that roller specifically, but like someone else already said; underpaid, unexperienced, etc., etc.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 04-22-2008 11:39 PM                        Well then train your management to get better projectionists/better trainers/more money for properly trained projectionists, etc. If underpaid, undertrained projectionists are the problem, then the fault of the matter lies within management. Also, you really don't need Bevan Poos when you have the Film-Tech platter ring.  |  IP: Logged Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 04-23-2008 09:41 PM                        Joe, In theory you are right. The fault lies in the management. However what makes you think that I haven´t tried to get them better paychecks? Because I have. No matter how hard I try, it´s not my call. I do invest many hours a week on training, which is very productive (specially when they quit a week later because they getter paying jobs (in McDonald´s, no less!)). (In case you were wondering yes, our tech salaries are just as great (Isn´t there a Graemlin for IRONY??)) Andrés  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 04-23-2008 09:59 PM                        Are you the main manager at this complex? What do the higher-ups have to say when you try to get them more $$$? If they are blocking you then it is ultimately the fault of upper management. Are you an assistant manager? Does the main GM just shrug you off? Lots of theater managers like to run the place as cheaply as possible so they can get a bonus, so I'm never surprised when raises are given out sparsely or when wages are fairly low to begin with.  |  IP: Logged

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