Film-Tech Cinema Systems
Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE


  
my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » The Death of Film (Page 7)

 
This topic comprises 10 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 
 
Author Topic: The Death of Film
Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-12-2002 04:49 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Will, there is an email link on Roger's Sun-Times web site. http://www.suntimes.com/ebert

But you'd be preaching to the choir.

 |  IP: Logged

Jeffry L. Johnson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 809
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Registered: Apr 2000


 - posted 05-13-2002 10:30 PM      Profile for Jeffry L. Johnson   Author's Homepage   Email Jeffry L. Johnson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NPR All Things Considered for 2002 May 13
Scroll down to bottom of page for Real Audio archive file at NPR Web site.
Digital Projectors
George Lucas shot and edited his latest Star Wars prequel, Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones, entirely in the digital domain. He'd hoped that by the time of its release on Thursday, it could be screened digitally too. But there are less than 75 theaters worldwide equipped with digital projectors; two of them are in Ohio. Mark Urycki, of member station WKSU in Kent, Ohio reports. (7:45)

 |  IP: Logged

Jacob Huber
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 172
From: Evansville, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 05-13-2002 11:56 PM      Profile for Jacob Huber   Email Jacob Huber   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I caught a glimpse of a little segment on I believe C-SPAN about Star Wars and digital projection. They showed a snippet of Rookie, and what it would look like torwards the end of it's run (digitally added of course), and they nearly blacked out the screen by the end of it. I had to laugh at this, since even my theatre (we don't use film-guard, and I believe I'm the only one who doesn't throw the leader on the floor) doesn't look this bad, not even previews. I also had to laugh at a short interview with Georgie about Star Wars not doing as well as Spiderman since AOTC will be released on fewer screens, because "it's not about competition, it's about art." Lucas hasn't been about art since the mid-80's.

 |  IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 05-14-2002 08:53 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Of course I would expect them to have made film prints that look worse than the digital version so that it makes everyone think that George is right. I still stop to think how good the Pixar films look transfered to film! I thnk George has his head up his a$$.
Mark

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-14-2002 11:15 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One tech told me that the prints that are coming out now looked a bit sharper than the one that was screened recently for critics and probably edges out the DLP slightly. I haven't seen this for myself but there you have one person's opinion.

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-14-2002 05:46 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Roger Ebert went back to see Ep. II a second time, this time via DLP.
Ebert sees it in DLP

To summarize, he found the digital presentation sharper.


 |  IP: Logged

David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 05-14-2002 06:12 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's another fairly balanced digital/film story, but Lucas gets in some potshots at film:
Lucas disses film



 |  IP: Logged

John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 05-15-2002 12:50 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Digital projection is the only way to see the film as he intended, without degradation from transferring the images to film, Lucas says.

It seems unlikely to me that a DLP system, throwing up a decompressed (lossy) image in real time, is going to produce a better image then a positive print made from an original negative off a film recorder.

The film recorder:

(1) works from an uncompressed, non-lossy data file, eliminating compression artifacts.
(2) can "upres" the image to 4K resolution
(3) can use time-intensive smoothing and interpolation algorithms on the resulting higher-resolution image to reduce pixelization
(4) adds two generations of pixel-hiding film grain -- the negative and the release print.

The digital projector:

(1) Works from a compressed, lossy data file.
(2) Is limited to 1280 x 1024.
(3) Is limited to real-time smoothing algorithms and pixel overlap to conceal the low-resolution digital source.
(4) Contributes no pixel-hiding grain.

Those are the factors that immediately come to mind.


 |  IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 05-15-2002 01:12 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John Schulien said: "...can "upres" the image to 4K resolution".

As the saying goes, "you can't get blood out of a stone". You can add edge effects to an image to make it appear sharper at certain distances, but if the detail is not captured in the original image, it no longer is there. The HDCAM digital recording format is limited to 1440 horizontal pixels luminance (Y) and 480 pixels chroma (C):
http://www.digitaltelevision.com/publish/dtvbook/ch3.shtml
Digital Recording Format Comparison

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: +1 585 477 5325 Cell: +1 585 781 4036 Fax: +1 585 722 7243
e-mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


 |  IP: Logged

John Schulien
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 206
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 05-15-2002 03:11 PM      Profile for John Schulien   Email John Schulien   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
As the saying goes, "you can't get blood out of a stone". You can add edge effects to an image to make it appear sharper at certain distances, but if the detail is not captured in the original image, it no longer is there.

I stole the word "upres" from an article on film recorders and film scanners.

I'm fully aware that you can't really increase resolution. My point was exactly as you said -- the film scanner allows you to perform smoothing and pixel concealment operations that can't be duplicated by a projector.

quote:
The HDCAM digital recording format is limited to 1440 horizontal pixels luminance (Y) and 480 pixels chroma (C)

What's shocking to me is how low the resolution is of the recording format. Well, I'll probably be seeing the movie in the next few days, and you can bet I'll be paying attention to the image quality. Maybe it isn't an issue.


 |  IP: Logged

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 05-15-2002 07:22 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
1440 X 480? Bring back 70mm! Aaaauugh!

 |  IP: Logged

Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 05-15-2002 07:39 PM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's a strange recording format given that they are referring to the 1440 as the number of samples per line, as though it was an analog signal to be digitized. Seems to me that the output of a CCD while perhaps analog in terms of levels is already broken down into an inherent sampling rate. I'm surprised they don't just stick with that and then perform whatever compression is needed using well known methods of data reduction.

 |  IP: Logged

Adam Fraser
Master Film Handler

Posts: 499
From: Houghton Lake, MI, USA
Registered: Dec 2001


 - posted 05-19-2002 01:38 AM      Profile for Adam Fraser   Author's Homepage   Email Adam Fraser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just looked at TIME magazine today and the address for the consumer letters portion of the magazine is letters@time.com I think everything was sent from everyone to a different address. That is if you would like your letter published in the magazine.
[edit] The email address that was posted earlier on the first page of this thread will go to the editor of the TIME.com website not the magazine.
------------------
Adam Fraser www.pinestheatre.com


 |  IP: Logged

David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002


 - posted 05-19-2002 08:53 PM      Profile for David Stambaugh   Author's Homepage   Email David Stambaugh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
After what I saw and heard this weekend, I'm almost ready to throw in the towel. George might be right.

Four Ep2 shows. Three of them had sound-related problems directly related to sound-on-film technology. One of the 3 prints is dirty after only 3 days. If this is typical of what happens in average theaters, no wonder George wants to get digital rolled out now. Film-Techers represent such a small percentage of booth personnel, the situation is probably hopeless. I know I've said before that "film looks and sounds better than ever" but maybe I should have worded it to say "film can look and sound better than ever, but it depends mostly on luck".

Another observation: I mentioned F-T to the manager of one of the local theaters (I won't say which one but if you read my posts you know it has to be either Cinemark or Regal). He/she said F-T is a typical internet site where technical wannabe losers hang out and nobody here really knows anything. Also that industry people hold film-techers in low regard and pay no attention to the site or anything said here.

Is this depressing or what?


 |  IP: Logged

Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 05-19-2002 09:21 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
David said:
film can look and sound better than ever, but it depends mostly on luck

What does luck have anything to do with anything?

Also, the manager's comments about Film-Tech was just his/her opinion, and that person obviously does not speak for the entire industry. What is sad is that manager's approach to his/her job. Nothing more.

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central (GMT -6:00)
This topic comprises 10 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 
 
   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.

© 1999-2020 Film-Tech Cinema Systems, LLC. All rights reserved.