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Topic: DCinema equipment lifespan - why so short?

Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-22-2008 11:48 PM

Just about any data cable standard has a recommended maximum allowable length. With the kind of bandwidth HD-SDI supports it makes sense for the length to have a certain limit.

Firewire 800 never gained the popularity it should have earned, but future versions of Firewire could hold a lot of promise for many different uses -such as digital cinema. The S1600 and S3200 versions can support 1.6Gb/sec or 3.2Gb/sec speeds over 9 pin connectors and support cables up to 100 meters in length (without having any repeaters along the way). I think there's another version that incorporates a RJ45 connection.

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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 04-23-2008 01:13 AM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
USL's idea of one "IT" room for data servers and then a data line going to a decoder contained in each projector or within the projector's base.

If you think about it, Dolby's system is based on the same idea. The Show Player is the media block, and the Show Store is the media storage. The only connection between the two is a dedicated ethernet connection. The Show store streams the data over ethernet to the Player where it's decoded and then sent to the projector. What's to say that you couldn't place a rack of show store's in a central location? This would reduce the amount of space needed nearby the projector.

I really like USL's concept of using an off the shelf Dell server to provide the media storage and handling, while placing a compact decoder at the projector. It also seems fair to say that this could end up being the most flexible system since the destination of the media could be changed on the fly (so they say) and sent do a different house. In essence it would eliminate "transfer time" between screens since the media block just receives a different composition from the server array. It also promises to be much more reliable because should one server fail, a redundant backup is stored on another server and the data is pulled from there. At ShoWest the USL rep said that it would probably be possible for this to happen very quickly so that only a short interruption in playback would occur during a failure. There's speculation amongst people that over long distances there could be problems with data loss between the server and media block, but Fiber would resolve that issue.

Strange, I was just having a conversation with someone today about this.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-23-2008 08:08 AM

quote: Tristan Lane
I really like USL's concept of using an off the shelf Dell server to provide the media storage and handling, while placing a compact decoder at the projector.

DTS also uses Dell as the base for all their servers and the nice thing is that the Poweredges are rock solid servers with an extremely good reputation... and you get Dell's 24 hour turnaround service included!. I think they're using the Poweredge 2950 as the projector server and the 6950 as the show library both Linux based.... I'll post some pics next wek when it arrives and we get it set up. Something leads me to believe that DTS and USL are collaborating on the server thing... I;m not sure who's JPEG 2000 board DTS is using at this point but it wouldn't surprise me if USL was building it for them.

Re: Dolby... Yes you could locacte them seperately if you wanted to. It just doesn't remain as flexible in my mind as the USL idea does.

As much as I love the Dolby Server one thing I really dislike is the Dolby Show Player sucking in all the booth dust and the technician cannot open it every couple of years to blow it clean again... It too needs an intake filter! Many are just going to fill up with dust eventually causing component failure. Or just having to return it to Dolby just because a fan dies or something simple seems rediclous. The Dells are 100% repairable in the field.

Bobby... I've never followed Firewire specs myself but I can almost guarantee you that D-Cinema will stay Ethernet... some of the systems here in SLC are already running on fibre based ethernet systems. As fibre ethernet cards drop in price people will lean in that direction. The fibre cable is already substantially less expensive than cat 5e copper. The connectors are about 10 bucks each though...

Mark

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 04-23-2008 09:19 AM

The field repairable units are defacto-non DCI compliant since internal "changes" related to piracy are unstopable. Louis

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-23-2008 09:23 AM

It would make sense if USL is supplying DTS (or anyone) their JPEG2000 board. Jack told me that they designed it specifically so it could be ported to others. It was a large expense getting it going and the more of them they sell (via them or others) the better the return on the investment.

As to Dolby and the 50-foot thing...believe it or not, at the traning seminar I attended, the Dolby people claimed that their system ran best with a 50-foot cable and hence that is the length they supplied...they claimed to have inferior results from shorter cables!!!!! That only means to me that they are not adhering to ANSI/SMPTE 292 as HDSDI should be able to travel on Belden 1694/1695 up to 100-meters or so and there should not be any minimum requirements. In fact, I know some receiving devices that have problems with cables over 15-feet even though the sending device is in spec. 50-feet is going to have a very measurable drop off in the signal, period. In the many, many HDSDI cables I've made, I've never had a "too short" problem.

As for fiber...it definately seems to be the wave of the future. In some ways I'm pleased as I see WAY TOO many poorly made Cat5 (RJ45) cables with crap connectors or poorly made connections...even many store-bought cables seem to cheap out too much. Cat5 seems to have people in the mindset that "anybody can do it." There is just enough success at it to keep the theory going.

I'm surprised that fiber costs less than Cat 5 (for the cable) though...Cat5 is damn near free as it is...even WITH the copper hikes.

The problems with fibre are the cost of their connectors, the overhead of the equipment to really do fibre right, and stripping that micro-miniature sleeve off of the fiber core itself. I don't doubt that it will become easier/cheaper as it becomes the standard of "wiring" in the future though...it has already been dropping in price and there are now both cold and hot methods.

Steve

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 04-23-2008 10:52 AM

"I am not in the industry"

Dell servers have been amazingly reliable for us where I work. I have one that's been running W2K Server since Aug. 2002 and it has never crashed, not once. Filled with Quantum Atlas SCSI drives that have been spinning all this time, lost 1 drive along the way but that's not Dell's fault. Have several other Dell servers from el-cheapo models they practically gave away, on up, and all have given extraordinarily reliable service.

Beware no-name Ethernet patch cables. I bought a bunch of cheap Cat 6 patch cables a while back, and it turned into a nightmare. The ends were apparently over-crimped such that the gold fingers were not making good contact with the panel. I ended up throwing them all in the garbage. If you deal with Ethernet patch cables a lot, get yourself a professional-grade AMP crimping tool and buy AMP RJ45 ends and you won't go wrong making your own cables. (Actually I guess AMP is now Tyco). I've tried no-name RJ45 ends and they don't work well with the AMP crimping tool.

Fiber is awesome, except for the part about terminating the ends yourself.

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-23-2008 12:02 PM

I guess the owners stance has now changed on their view of Digital. They have asked me to research how to get them in to digital. They talked to AccessIT at Showest and weren't very impressed with what they were told. The cost quoted to them were a lot higher than numbers that have been thrown around elsewhere.

Of course they are not in CBG or any other group at this time. The dollar amounts discussed included a yearly upgrade insurance fee, a maintenance fee that is well over 3 times the amount claimed here for, a percentage of pre-show slide advertising and a percentage of on screen with minimums that are rather high as well. The cost per auditorium was more than double what Mark has stated as being a goal.

I guess I'm asking if there are other groups out there doing this so we can find a group to get in with.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-23-2008 02:43 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
The problems with fibre are the cost of their connectors, the overhead of the equipment to really do fibre right, and stripping that micro-miniature sleeve off of the fiber core itself. I don't doubt that it will become easier/cheaper as it becomes the standard of "wiring" in the future though...it has already been dropping in price and there are now both cold and hot methods.

The connectors and fragile nature of cable are two big drawbacks of fibre optic cable (not to mention the cost).

We use fiber optic cable on certain LED electronic variable message center installations. It's very reliable and safer to use as a hard line connection between the host computer and message center. No worries about lightning electrifying the cable. It's also a lot faster than various wireless transmission methods.

Although Firewire doesn't deliver those 1.6Gb/s and 3.2Gb/s speeds just yet, they will eventually and even move up to 6.4Gb/s speed. The cables are simple enough for any person to handle.

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 04-23-2008 03:17 PM

Ron - I did hear that the phase 2 deployments would carry a higher exhibitor investment and VPFs for advertising/alternate content, but I did not hear about the upgrade insurance fees . . . . . I did hear from other sources that Christie maintenance might be higher than phase 1, but I didn't think it would be that high - good information for all to know though.

I know Technicolor is doing rollouts and a dealer friend of mine checked into them for one of his customers - they were close to the costs of the original AccessIT deal but with slightly higher yearly maintenance. I'm not sure who to contact for them though or what their current deal is.

I'm not sure if DCIP is locked in to just Regal, AMC and Cinemark - I heard a rumor that their talks with the studios might be stalled at the moment (total absolute rumor)

Depending on which size projector you need I think the numbers are starting to work in favor of buying equipment outright for new buildings (the new Christie M is rumored to be in the $40,000 range) - the only caveat with buying is DCI compliancy and who is responsible to upgrade any software/hardware to be DCI compliant. (I've heard that TI is a long way away from having a system that will pass FIPS certification for DCI compliancy). Long term maintenace might also be an issue with buying (i.e. 10 years out what will the costs be?).

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-23-2008 03:53 PM

David, the owner I talked to had spoken to AcessIT at Showest prior to the announcement of deal with NATO. He likewise signed a contract not to divulge details thus the rather cryptic way I had to word things.

We are trying to get figure out how to talk to Technicolor as well, which we feel might be a better deal for the smallness of our situation. We are 17 screens all together at this point and certainly don't represent any real buying power!

I have suggested we join other independents in a purchase group. Of course he is an insurance person and works on his main business more than this. The other two owners are lawyers and don't have time for research so this falls to me.

All the agreements not reveal information make it rather hard to discuss things in any detail.

I think what turned him to thinking we may have to do this was a statement from a film rep to the effect that the minute that they didn't need US prints for other markets film would dropped in the US market.

Now Technicolor and Deluxe have plants in Europe and Asia I also assume for Africa, maybe not. As far as I know the only place US prints are used beside here is Latin America and South America. So if digital makes inroads there then film would die quickly here.

Also it probable isn't called upgrade insurance it is probable an upgrade fee or upgrade fund payment but since he is an insurance man that is what he told me.

It is sort of strange all the secrecy's about the cost, I mean cars even expensive ones have the cost right on the stickers or you ask the dealer and he tells you. They don't say well let me see for you the price is x it might be y for another person.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-23-2008 04:40 PM

It is odd that you choose cars as your price out in the open example...I mean, in the States, except for Saturn...there is sticker price and then there is what you can get it for. Depending on the market, a savy buyer can get a great deal or there are times when dealers can get "additional dealer markups."

Note, there ARE list prices for all of this but that isn't what people want to know...they want to know the bottom-line (their actual costs...tax, tags, title, dealer prep...etc). Well that is often a variable. One of the variables is definately the quantity of the machines you are buying.

Because the profit margins are VERY tight on DCinema equipment (compare a DCinema 2K projector to a 2K A/V projector in price)...it takes quantity of sales to make an even tighter profit margin worth while. Fortunately, there are three manufacturers competing for the same sales so some money might be better than none. However, at the end of the day, they would all like to make as much as possible on each sale.

Steve

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-23-2008 06:48 PM

Well, Steve, everyone would like to make as much as they can on every sale.

Yes there is always the a list and bottom line price but having to sign an agreement to not tell anyone anything specific about a deal is a bit odd to me. No one has ever made me sign a contract to talk to them about a car and what the asking price is or the bottom line. No one has ever made me sign a contract on DTS just to find the cost on it either.

I don't' recall every buying furniture and the salesman (or woman) telling me but you have to sign an agreement to not tell what the ottoman cost. I mean this is approaching the point that you suspect that maybe you are getting the short end of the deal and they don't want you to know that the guy that has the exact same number of screens and same equipment has a better deal.

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David Zylstra
Master Film Handler

Posts: 432
From: Novi, MI, USA
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 04-23-2008 06:53 PM

quote: Ron Funderburg
He likewise signed a contract not to divulge details thus the rather cryptic way I had to word things.

I completely understand - I do the same thing since we have confidentiality clauses in our contracts (especially in regards to pricing) and I try to talk in generalities or numbers that have been made public by others.

So far I've only been given ballpark numbers from our dealer on pricing for digital projectors - but we are not ready to build yet and we won't waste time on firming up pricing until we know how many buildings and screens we are doing since there could be some discounts for committing to 40 screens in a year's time as opposed to only buying 1 unit.

I'd suggest calling your current projection supplier and ask for pricing as well as calling a few others for comparison (in case you think you are not getting good pricing). I think the reluctance to post any pricing information here is that some dealers may give some customers a slightly better price due to past relationships or volume. I'd suggest calling Louis B or Mark G's companies for pricing if you don't already have a good relationship with a dealer (I've heard good things about both their companies).

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-23-2008 07:36 PM

I have emailed the dealer we normally use and have made a tentative contact email to Louis though I didn't make a specific request from him yet though I plan to.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 04-23-2008 07:49 PM

Beware any deal that "won't stand the light of the day." Louis

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