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Topic: DCinema equipment lifespan - why so short?

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-21-2008 02:50 PM

quote: Ron Funderburg
Mark maybe I overreacted to your comments but I can tell you being busy in doesn't enusre anyone is a good tech it may just mean he is all that a person is willing to pay.

Why don't you quit dumping on Mark when you have never experienced him working for you? He HAS done work for me so I can tell you he's a good tech, not a slacker, and he has great taste in French Fries too. [Big Grin]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-21-2008 02:57 PM

quote: Ron Funderburg
Bobby and Steve the platter issues may or may not have been discussed here.

Oh, they've certainly been discussed.

Some people dislike platters because they have the opinion platters can damage film. Others defend the use of platters, adding that if you have good quality equipment that is properly maintained and practice good film handling procedures there should be no problem with using platters.

From what I have observed of such discussions, it's clear to me that film projection systems just need to be of good quality, be properly maintained and film just needs to be handled correctly in the first place. When the job isn't done right film prints get damaged.

That's about as diplomatic as I think I can put it, but I've never really gotten embroiled in the platters versus changeover debate in the first place. Throw out some DTS versus Dolby Digital stuff and I'm there!
[Razz]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-21-2008 07:43 PM

quote: Ron Funderburg
but my fear is that the local theater will cease to exisit.

I admit that there are some local theaters that if they did not sign up for the CBG may be facing the end of the line. It also depends on just how savvy the owners are financially... not just how much money they have in the bank... I'm talking creative financing and creative buisness operation. So local theaters are not all doomed just because of digital, they just really need to get their act together if they are to survive. Indeed... not get the act together JUST upstairs... also in every aspect downstairs... and in the basement too.

Bobby is 100% correct in his statement... you need decent equipment AND proper maintainance. That decent equipment not need be brand new either... I still consider the Super Simplex a decent projector and there are still a couple dozen we attend to... some in large theaters! Good training and decently paid employees sure help immensley so that they stay more than three weeks.

Mike... I'm bring Speedway a 5 pound bag of krinkle cuts for sure next time I'm up there!!!

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Martin McCaffery
Film God

Posts: 2481
From: Montgomery, AL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-21-2008 08:17 PM

quote: Ron Funderburg
I didn't feel the platter was a movie to get rid of projectionist, though I'm sure some of the greedy tried to use it that way.

Well, the manufacturers certainly did. I don't remember which one, but I remember the ads in Boxoffice with the headline "Now you can leave the booth unattended."

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Tristan Lane
Master Film Handler

Posts: 444
From: Nampa, Idaho
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 04-21-2008 08:46 PM

The platter paved the way for the modern multiplex.

Digital cinema will end up eliminating projection booths at many future theaters. It will also allow for much more interesting theater design since the space required for a projector will be reduced more and more over time.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-21-2008 10:30 PM

I don't agree with that. Projection booths are still going to be necessary.

A Christie CP2000 isn't huge, but the footprint it requires is not much different from a 35mm film projector. You still need at least one sound rack the size of a refrigerator to hold a cinema processor, crossover and all those amplifiers. And then you need another booth rack alongside to hold your digital cinema server, UPS battery backups, etc.

Add to that all the other gear that's going to be added to the booth if you're running a multiplex. A SAN server rack bigger than any of the sound racks may be involved. Additional digital pre-show equipment may be thrown in for good measure.g

All in all there's too much equipment to fit into small spaces or be incorporated into the lobby. The equipment may demand more electrical power and will certainly demand better ventilation.

The projection booth is one of the few private areas in a multiplex. There are advantages to having a management office up in the booth.

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 04-21-2008 10:54 PM

I don't see how projection booths could possibly be eliminated. All that equipment Bobby listed etc. Existing booths may be a little less crowded, and maybe new ones will be a little smaller. But you still have requirements for a lot of power, you're generating heat and noise, and you want all that expensive hardware to be secured to the extent possible. Even if there were a 50' direct-view flat panel (or array of panels) for theaters that eliminated projectors, you'd still have all the server hardware and audio equpment.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-22-2008 07:31 AM

quote: Bobby Henderson
A Christie CP2000 isn't huge, but the footprint it requires is not much different from a 35mm film projector. You still need at least one sound rack the size of a refrigerator to hold a cinema processor, crossover and all those amplifiers. And then you need another booth rack alongside to hold your digital cinema server, UPS battery backups, etc.

Actually Server and audio will all fit into one rack unless a huge sound system is involved. With the Christie ZX base there is what amounts to a 4 foot rack in the back side of the base. Since all Christie projector's DCP is at the rear of the projector having the server and all other ancillary stuff located there makes the install really nice and clean... and very convenient. There is even room for the NA-10 at the bottom!

One of the more idiotic ideas I've heard about is a Chineese seat salesman also trying to sell BARCO digital projectors. His idea... er some other guys idea is to hang the projector from a hoist in the auditorium itself so the technician could lower it down to work on it. Now thats one of the dustiest/dirtiest places in any given theater and the hoist would have to be man- rated since the projector would be hanging over people sitting in the room. Not to mention the blower noise the projector generates... HAving been involved in much stage work when I was at GTS I can say that man rated hoists of any capacity are extremely expensive to buy and install. They also have to be installed by a certified rigger who is competant at this type of work in order for liability insurance to have any meaning or effect if something goes wrong.

Anyway we have worked out one scenerio for a customer doing digital that just involves an 8 foot wide hallway instead of a large wide booth type of affair. The 8 foot hallway is ALOT less expensive than 14 man rated lifts installed! There are no platters and such and assuming CP-2000 projectors or ZX's its just wide enough at 8 feet to meet code. A little wider would be better but is not necessary.

Another serious consideration to take into account is the fire control system in the booth. Does one want a typical water pressure fire extinguishing system or something else similar to halon? Water needless to say isn't good for electronics. Sure it may all be covered by insurance but how long will that take to process and then replace the waterlogged gear??? Alot of lost revenue could be involved there while the theater is shut down for many weeks.

Mark

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Kenneth Wuepper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1026
From: Saginaw, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 04-22-2008 10:09 AM

Mark,

How long can you safely operate that projector without the additional venting stack connected and operating?

KEN

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-22-2008 01:25 PM

Not very long with a 3kw running in it. We actually had a blower sitting on top... I pulled it off for the photo.

Mark

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 04-22-2008 01:59 PM

I will agree, projection booths won't and shouldn't disappear. If anything for security and safety issues, but they will get smaller as Mark suggested in his above post about the eight foot wide hallway. Hell some booths I have been in were not much bigger than that. I had a couple of booth boxes that were barely eight feet with a platter in it. You could only get to one side of the platter it was so close to the wall.

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-22-2008 05:44 PM

I agree the booths will get smaller, they can be more logically set up (but then they can be more logicaly set up with film usually) but still you will need some kind of on site tech (for want of a better term) to check equipment, to maintain the equipment, and to do any emergency work needed.

As I have said before things will change but things will be somewhat the same.

There has to be ways to help the other than 600 owners that didn't get in on the first wave. As of this date standards have only been outlined not solidified! Small town American should be able to have their local theaters weather the current owners is savy or not!

What happens when someone new enters the business how does he get a break on new equipment or is just SOL as well. I guess then the people that enter in the business in 10 years or 20 years should have made their movie before they were out of diapers.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 04-22-2008 06:09 PM

Digital is now and will be a rich man's game.

If I can eliminate the booth, then all equipment can be put in one place in an I.T. environment. That is who will be cashing the paycheck, anyway. Architectural savings and the lack of a second floor will help pay the bills.

I am, of course, assuming that PROJECTION will pass into history being replaced by some form of illuminated screen.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 04-22-2008 07:01 PM

The realities are right now that the server need not be next to the projector (or screen)...amplifiers need not be in the booth either.

So long as projectors are being used, then there will need to be a booth of sorts for sound isolation and perhaps some controlled air (humidity and cleanliness), if for no other theatre operation reason.

Tristan, as for platters paving the way for the modern multiplex...they were no more essential than anything else...it was AUTOMATION that allowed for people to oversee more things...this is not true of projection. In fact, an automated 2-projector/changeover multiplex requires less human intervention than the same plex running on platters.

The facts are, the platters were not brought about for the improvement of the booth, but to "eliminate the projectionist" as I have seen in old publications.

Please don't make this a reels/platter thread as there are about 4584 of those already (just do a search on my name). If you knew how many times I've heard that the platter elimintated the need for a projectionist...regardless of whether you feel it did or didn't...in the mindset of many exhibitors it did. They are the ones that systematically lowered the quality of the booth to its present state (in general...not that EVERY show sucks...but most certainly do).

Steve

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-22-2008 07:17 PM

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Digital is now and will be a rich man's game.

I don't quite agree with that statement Louis... When you take into account the labor savings in a large multiplex the cost of Digital is just about an even trade off for the labor over 15 years which also just so happens to be the average life of a multiplex. Daily operational cost for an average size screen... not over 40 feet wide is about the same for a film projector rnning a 3kw lamp. So no big deal there.

As for the small town guy... many I know are pretty saavy financially, many do it as a side line not as their main source of living. So I'm not too worried about them existing... they will. Really.. its up to the individual theater owner(s) to prepare themselves for digital... it's not going to come along delivered on a silver platter to anyone. There IS still plenty of time to prepare.

Steve,

Actually Dolby does reccomend a maximum cable length for the HDSDI connections although I don't remember off hand what it is... they prefer the server I believe within 50 feet of the projector... 50 feet of cable is what's provided in the cabling kit they sell. So at least with Dolby stuff placing it near each projector seems to be Dolby's preference. Perhaps the output buffers on the HDSDI line are not all too capable... who knows. If a system ONLY involves just data transmission as some upcomming servers do then you're just limited by the ethernet system you choose to have installed.

USL's idea of one "IT" room for data servers and then a data line going to a decoder contained in each projector or within the projector's base is probably the more flexible of the concepts going right now. I sincerely hope they can get DCI to accept this novel idea!! I believe the DTS D-Cinema system is also capable of doing things in a similar fashion. Will know next week when we get our first one in although we are not setting it up in a remote location from the projectors... just with a remote client station.

Mark

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