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Topic: DCP creation software for windows

Bajsic Bojan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu
Registered: Aug 2008

posted 05-04-2011 10:26 AM

i hope you dont mind hijacking this thread but:

At which point does one put additional language subtitles into the DCP? Or hearing impaired titles if you want to call them that.

I have seen xml files with subtitles and since if i'd want to take those and put in subtitles of my own, how could i do that? Changing the xml in an editor is easy, but can one put it into a DCP, or is it a separate file added additionally, or does one need mirrions of $$$ of software and a DCDM or even a DSM?

Can one add xml subtitles in any way on opensource DCP creation programs?

I want to do that for 2d content only.

Any input greatly appreciated

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Terrence Meiczinger
Film Handler

Posts: 45
From: Orono, Me, USA
Registered: Dec 2008

posted 05-04-2011 11:41 AM

quote: Bajsic Bojan
i hope you dont mind hijacking this thread but:

At which point does one put additional language subtitles into the DCP? Or hearing impaired titles if you want to call them that.

I have seen xml files with subtitles and since if i'd want to take those and put in subtitles of my own, how could i do that? Changing the xml in an editor is easy, but can one put it into a DCP, or is it a separate file added additionally, or does one need mirrions of $$$ of software and a DCDM or even a DSM?

Can one add xml subtitles in any way on opensource DCP creation programs?

I want to do that for 2d content only.

Any input greatly appreciated

Subtitles and HI/VI context are similar, but are handled differently in the DCP depending on what you are trying to achieve. Additionally, there are different subtitle methods, SMPTE 429 and CineCanvas. Both methods are doable using open source tools, but it is a bit tricky as a portion of the process requires manually editing files.

Try this as a starting point...

http://www.michaelcinquin.com/tools/dcp

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Knut Erik Evensen
Film Handler

Posts: 10
From: Tromso, troms, Norway
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 05-04-2011 11:57 AM

Encrypted DCPs:
If you edit the xml files you will break the DCP. You need something like the Doremi mastering station and the master keys to edit the XMLs and make a new version.

Unencrypted DCPs:
You can change the subtitles and make a new version without master keys. The easy way is to do this in something like the Doremi mastering station, but you could extract the jpeg2000 sequence and wav files with Easydcp player or asdcp-test and use Easydcp creator to add new interop XML subtitles.
This should not be done without the consent of the distributor of course.

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Bajsic Bojan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu
Registered: Aug 2008

posted 05-04-2011 04:31 PM

thank you both for very informative replies.

yes, i thought that it is probably a case of breaking the DCP in order to add/edit a subtitle.

but can a mastering station like the one mentioned allow a postproduction studio/distributor to open a DCP and edit it, without needing a master file (DCDM) or some other previous material like a DSM? and still not 'hurt' the audio/video data?

i am assuming new keys can then be generated using the same hardware and software. correct?

the cost of this software/hardware solution is high or is this something every small distributor can afford? from what i see the market prices for DCP creation are pretty low, but nowhere can i see someone offering DCP creation from an existing DCP, only stuff like DCDM or HDCam SR or other video source.

thank you again for your replies

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 05-04-2011 07:55 PM

If it is encrypted, you can't add anything to the DCP - you need to be a trusted party for the studio in order to receive keys or unencrypted content.

If it is unencrypted, you can keep encoded MXF video/audio just like they are, add subtitles and create new asset map, CPL, PKL, etc. This new DCP may stay unencrypted or become encrypted afterwards.

A DCP does not need to be 'opened' - it's just a bunch of files. Just that the encrypted parts can not be played/decoded. You can pack encrypted MXF files for video and audio into a new DCP/CPL with new subtitles - but you will still lack the keys that allow playback of these encrypted files.

- Carsten

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Bajsic Bojan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu
Registered: Aug 2008

posted 05-05-2011 03:37 AM

quote: Carsten Kurz
A DCP does not need to be 'opened' - it's just a bunch of files. Just that the encrypted parts can not be played/decoded. You can pack encrypted MXF files for video and audio into a new DCP/CPL with new subtitles - but you will still lack the keys that allow playback of these encrypted files.

first off, i'm asking this info as i don't quite understand the distributor arguments of this action costing MORE than buying and subtitling a 35mm print, and i want to get some info on this.

as the distributor here will probably get a DCP and will just need to localize it by adding a subtitle file (we only do dubbing for limited amount of children films), i really dont see their calculation, if this is as easy as adding an xml file to a hard drive, possibly only making a new DCP and generating KDMs for those.

again, am i completely off?

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 05-06-2011 05:10 PM

Well, it needs special knowledge, probably 2-3 external service companies, and these charge high hourly rates for this kind of job. Compared to this, a 'classic' subtitling job might indeed be cheaper.

I remember that for a while a 'digital copy', DCP, was more expensive than a 35mm print from a normal supply chain. Simpy because the businesses that create DCPs have much higher rates than 35mm labs.

Creating DCPs now is possible using cheap or open source software - it used to be extremely expensive 2-3 years ago. Now we have to wait for easy/cheap subtitling as well. And just remember that subtitling is not just a technical process. Translating, fitting and timing can be a really cumbersome job.

For a one-time event, one could try 'realtime' subtitling using a DLP/LCD projector + Powerpoint.

- Carsten

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Terrence Meiczinger
Film Handler

Posts: 45
From: Orono, Me, USA
Registered: Dec 2008

posted 05-06-2011 11:49 PM

quote: Carsten Kurz
And just remember that subtitling is not just a technical process. Translating, fitting and timing can be a really cumbersome job.

Yeah, this is definitely an aspect that I think gets overlooked. Its not like you can use google translator and have every language done in a few seconds... well not yet anyway. :-)

I'm working on improving subtitle support in OpenDCP. I'll have CineCanvas support in the next release as well as being able to create subtitle MXF files for SMPTE.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 05-07-2011 07:43 AM

I'll have to look into it first to make any assumptions, but how could the timing of the subtitles be done effectively? I guess there's a big difference between 'post-titling' a DCP and setting up titles e.g. during editing/postproduction with the help of an editing program before it is actually converted to DCP/MXF.

The 'post-titling' approach would either need to play back video/audio MXF and set marks/timecode cues. Or you would have to use off-the shelf software that allows to set the timing and export cue lists to be married with the subtitles later.

- Carsten

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Bajsic Bojan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu
Registered: Aug 2008

posted 05-08-2011 02:10 PM

keep in mind that for subtitling 35mm basically the same process of translation and spotting takes place, so this is the same cost for both.

how come making a multiregion DCP with multiple different subtitle tracks is not a norm somewhere? its done by dvd/bluray distros in most 'grouped' regions (lets say scandinavia, balkans,..), what is different with a dcp?

are studios doing anything about this already or is this completely a local distributor preference? i mean, what is stopping a local distributor that has 6 translations of the same movie and the source material of the movie to make 1 multiregion dcp with 6 additional xml files?

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Knut Erik Evensen
Film Handler

Posts: 10
From: Tromso, troms, Norway
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 05-08-2011 06:14 PM

Making different versions of a DCP is easy with professional mastering DCP software. The facility that has made one version could easily make another version that is delivered as a small supplemental package that can be emailed to the cinema or supplied on the DCP harddrive. When this supplemental package is ingested on a digital cinema server a new DCP with subtitles is available on the server. The facility could send out a harddrive with all territories on it easily, but typically it is just one language on each harddrive. In your case maybe the facility needs to get the DCP from storage so that could cost extra.
If it is cheaper to make a new version from scratch another facility could make a new version from the graded image sequence that was used to make the original DCP or film print. Hopefully a small distributor that has bought the rights to a film in a territory does not get a DCP made from a HDCam cassette.

Making a new version of a DCP with cheaper software that lacks the supplemental package option is possible. With Easydcp you could make a new version of a DCP if you have the jpeg2000 sequence and sound files from the original DCP. If you want to make a new version with new subtitles it would take maybe 60 min if using RAID storage. With a Doremi mastering station or Qubemaster Pro it would take maybe 20 minutes if using RAID storage.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 05-08-2011 06:20 PM

Well, every translation costs money, so does every additional language.
There's some interesting articles on various aspects of DCP production on the EDCF Site - also a few about subtitling. One statement I remember is that subtitling is always the last thing in the production chain and get's the least financial resources and attention. http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/edcf_mastering_guide.pdf

Let's face it, people may like original language versions, very often they need subtitles to understand them, but nevertheless everyone hates subtitles.
It's just a bad idea to throw text onto an image that has been thoroughly composed without that caption in mind.
There's no glory in doing subtitling, there's no Oscar for it.

I guess they do a lot more subtitling for DVD and BluRay releases, but then there is more time for more languages and a real market for everyone of them.

I do admit there are considerable differences throughout the world. For some reason, Germany e.g. has a long lasting tradition in dubbing. You hardly see any original versions with subtitles here, not on tv, very few in cinema.
I know this is different for other european countries, where dubbing is only done for blockbusters and subtitles are the norm.

- Carsten

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Bajsic Bojan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 190
From: Ljubljana, Si, Eu
Registered: Aug 2008

posted 05-09-2011 10:02 AM

thanks for the link and thank you both for great replies.

subtitling is indeed the least costly of localization methods, but is probably the only thing other than 'rights' for a distributor here to take care of, so as stated, i dont see the claim of "subtitling is just too expensive in digital".

yes, germany has widespread dubbing, but i believe that most other places people would freak out when some ie sean connery was speaking with a different voice. animations and kids movies i understand are preferably dubbed.

thanks again

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 05-09-2011 02:20 PM

As a matter of fact, they are putting an enormous effort into dubbing in germany. It's an economy on it's own with it's own tradition. They always tend to use the same voices in germany, and as such, these 'voices' become equally famous as the stars.
Which in turn makes it nearly impossible to change an actors voice once his 'local voice' has been established. Then they get advertising jobs so as to 'transfer' the acting talent into the ad. Everyone recognizes them instantly. And hardly anyone knows the actors own voice here.

On the other hand, I do know there are dubbed movies in other countries where the same person speaks (reads) all the roles. shrieek.

- Carsten

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Mark Strube
Master Film Handler

Posts: 322
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 05-29-2011 01:50 PM

Carsten,

I tried emailing Lars, but it seems his email server has Gmail blocked. I had a question about sound on the DCPC software, maybe you can help?

I have a stereo PCM wav, and I'd like it to be treated as "SR", so not only the front left and right channels. Where do I place the file? Do I put it in the "left" placement, where it says multi-channel files? Or do I place it in the "center" where it says left SR right SR? Or should I be doing something else entirely?

Thanks for any help!!

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