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Topic: Dolby's new sound system

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-18-2014 01:28 PM

The difference between Star Wars and Star Trek is, the first Trek movie by Abrams was a REBOOT, where this new Star Wars will be a SEQUEL, so he will have way less latitude to do weird things with the saga.

That said, it's supposedly set 30 years after Return of the Jedi, and we all know how much things can change in 30 years. (Harrison Ford's bones becoming much more brittle, for one example.)

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 07-18-2014 02:17 PM

quote:
That said, it's supposedly set 30 years after Return of the Jedi, and we all know how much things can change in 30 years. (Harrison Ford's bones becoming much more brittle, for one example.)

or that he's become more of a klutz [Wink]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-18-2014 04:24 PM

Mike...it's not the years, it's the mileage!

Since George himself seemed to have no problem with lattituding his own story, I'd say the sky or "space" is the limit!

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 07-18-2014 05:32 PM

quote: Mike Blakesley
The difference between Star Wars and Star Trek is, the first Trek movie by Abrams was a REBOOT, where this new Star Wars will be a SEQUEL, so he will have way less latitude to do weird things with the saga.

They could always release a definitive Final Super Special THX Remastered 3D 4K Edition, in which Han shoots Greedo's brother from another mother, Darth Vader is Luke's mother and the Midget-Wookies a.k.a. Ewoks didn't survive the Endorian Holocaust and claim this was George Lucas last wish before setting the franchise free. The movies always were supposed to be like this, but the limited budget and technology at the time didn't allow to shoot it that way.

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 07-26-2014 11:44 AM

question: since Atmos is installed in both the Dolby Theater and the El Capitan that have balconies and particularly in the former with multiple one's - how is this actually achieved since some patrons don't have speakers actually above them (the ones sitted under balconies) - I'm just curious.

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-26-2014 04:59 PM

quote: Jonathan Goeldner
question: since Atmos is installed in both the Dolby Theater and the El Capitan that have balconies and particularly in the former with multiple one's - how is this actually achieved since some patrons don't have speakers actually above them (the ones sitted under balconies) - I'm just curious.

At the Dolby Theatre, based on pictures, I don't think you get overhead surround if you are under the balcony. The effect can't really work because you don't have "line of site" to the more forward ceiling speakers anyway.

The Dolby Theatre only utilizes 3 screen channels and they are line array speaker setups (like a concert venue). The surround speakers don't appear to be typical movie theatre speakers either.

For the El Capitan I have no idea but I would guess that you just don't get the effect under there. I would think the people under the balcony would have the same line of site issue for the more forward surrounds.

The AMC ETX at the Downtown Disney 24 in Orlando has Atmos and a Balcony. I don't remember how it was configured there. The balcony in that location isn't very deep though and is pretty high up.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-27-2014 11:52 AM

If you do a search in Google Images you'll see pictures in the Dolby theater of overhead surrounds mounted on two black truss beams hanging from the ceiling by cables. I think they were for the benefit of people on the main floor of the auditorium. Those trusses would be eye sores for anyone in the balcony.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-27-2014 12:09 PM

As someone that has to contend with balconies in many theatres...they can be most challenging for a surround array even before you try to consider Atmos. Numerically, they are such a minority that you aren't going to design a system around a balcony theatre.

We have come up with suitable speakers/designs that seemed have done very well and putting 7.1 in most any Balconied situation where all people will get the 7.1 mix rather effectively.

Depending on the amount of overhang of the balcony to the main section, one will have a very challenging task to try and get an effective Atmos system to work properly. Then again, as a percentage, those people that are in a bad spot of the theatre may be so small as to not worry about getting the full Atmos feel and just settle for a partial experience.

I know that due to some really odd shapes we have had portions that may only have a mono surround in their zone because stereo would not have been effective yet retained stereo surrounds (or even 7.1) in other zones. It really depends on the shape of the theatre/zones.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 07-27-2014 05:30 PM

Does the Dolby Theater actually show movies? If it does I bet they close off the balconies during that time. There's no way those hanging speakers wouldn't be in the way of the screen... unless the screen is tiny.

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Jonathan Goeldner
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1360
From: Washington, District of Columbia
Registered: Jun 2008

posted 07-27-2014 09:46 PM

The reason I ask is that I inquired to AMC if DC's Uptown Theater might get the Atmos conversion: what they replied was:

"We're testing some other options"

Given that the two surrounds speakers in the balcony section face forward to the audience in said section, this must be problematic. I guess that's code for possibly Auro 11.1 (maybe, maybe not - and something I'm not jumping up and down about) but I gather it is something on the burner that AMC is addressing in updating the theater's sound system.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-27-2014 11:12 PM

AMC has at least one Auro equipped theater (in the Miami area IIRC), so that wouldn't put the Uptown Theater totally off limits from an Auro install.

However, I think Auro would have even more problems in a balcony equipped theater than Atmos. You have the ceiling layer of speakers to consider in how the balcony overhang would disrupt it. Worse, how do you make those two layers of side wall speakers fit into the overhang? There's not enough vertical space. You can't just run one layer into the balcony seating area and the standard layer below it.

At least with Atmos, and perhaps some improved programming, one could have side and back wall speakers run for both the balcony level and floor level seating areas. If the overhang is high enough some ceiling surround speakers could work there as well. The main challenge Atmos is going to have in balcony auditoriums is the ceiling surrounds with the highest distances between ceiling and floor seats. Some different speaker and amplification combinations would be needed.

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Ron Curran
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 504
From: Springwood NSW Australia
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 07-28-2014 02:58 AM

As a cinema that screens mainly to adults, plus family fare in the holidays, we don't see enough 7.1 fare. Although it is great to play the occasional title, our 7.1 format hardly gets a workout.
When we ran 35mm our Panastereo system gave us 7.1 all the time, so we miss it with digital.
I believe Dolby has leapfrogged advancement with Atmos. Cinemas like ours that see little use of their 7.1 system would hardly jump to Atmos.
If more titles embraced 7.1, we would be prepared to advance incementally.
We could be tempted to go 9.1 with 5 stage, 4 surround and 1 ceiling channel. And that could be achieved with an inexpensive add-on outrigger unit like the Dolby/DTS/Panastereo film processor.
Dolby could promote their Atmos processor as "future-ready" while encouraging the 9.1 format with studios and exhibitors.
So, if 7.1 became as common as 5.1 now is, and 9.1 was a serious mix, an exhibitor could weigh up the possibilities.
However, I think that Dolby or DTS would have more sales possibilities with smaller cinemas like ours with a 9.1 unit. Those exhibitors who haven't jumped into 7.1 yet could go straight to 9.1, but they would not consider 64 channels.

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 906
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 07-28-2014 06:32 AM

It will be interesting to see how this all works out. The USL CMS can play MDA content today, rendering to 13.1 or less with HI/VI, or 15.1 without.

Harold

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-28-2014 08:51 AM

Saying the USL CMS can play MDA content today is a little misleading. DTS (and anyone else working on the technology) don't appear to be finished developing the first generation of the technology. Electronics companies love to try to sell people products that are future proof somehow, but rarely ever manage to deliver on the promise.

Obviously the clarification is that the USL CMS is going to render to a certain number of channels. That's kind of like someone installing a Dolby CP850 and then only installing enough amplifiers for Atmos to fold everything down into a 9.1 channel beds-only approach.

Ultimately DTS intends to release something that can do everything Dolby Atmos can do. That's going to require a much better processor than something that can only output to 13.1 or 15.1. The processor will have to match Dolby's 64-speaker output capability or even outdo it.

quote: Ron Curran
I believe Dolby has leapfrogged advancement with Atmos. Cinemas like ours that see little use of their 7.1 system would hardly jump to Atmos.

Before Dolby Atmos was launched there wasn't a great deal of 7.1 releases for commercial movie theaters. Some movies would be released theatrically in 5.1 only and then when the movie appeared on Blu-ray there would be a 7.1 mix added.

If Dolby Atmos grows in popularity it will make 7.1 mixes more common as well since Atmos can output that format during post production.

I would like to see the people in charge of d-cinema standards make some clear decisions about the remaining "unused" channels available in the 16 channel LCPM format. If they did that then it would be easier for sound designers in post production to create detailed object based mixes that would work in Dolby Atmos and DTS Open MDA. Those mixes could fold down to a 9.1 or 11.1 LPCM format (and 7.1 as well).

If channels 15 and 16 are assigned to ceiling surrounds and the left extra and right extra stage channels are put into use that would make it possible for a movie theater to at least install the speakers needed for a future upgrade to Dolby Atmos. It could run in conventional 9.1 or 11.1 mode, supplied by folded down channel based mixes created from Atmos-oriented sound designs. When the budget would allow for the upgrade the theater could then install Atmos to kick the sound field up another big notch in quality.

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 906
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009

posted 07-28-2014 09:58 PM

I'm sorry if I was misleading. It was not my intent. The MDA bitstream appears stable and works, but I expect it will migrate some towards a SMPTE standard. There are about 70 people on the standards committee working on this. There are good discussions with contributions by Dolby, DTS, Auro, and many others. In my opinion (as everything I write is), there is nothing in particular about a bistream that limits the number of speakers. The number of speakers is largely limited by the amount of hardware. In the case of the USL system, the limitation is the current number of AES outputs and forensic marking DSPs (but that could be increased). Other systems face this limitation plus processing power requirements if they render in real time.

So, yes, USL can play MDA right now, rendering to 13.1 or 15.1.

Thanks for the comments! It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

Harold

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