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Author
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Topic: D-Cinema...post your pros and cons of the different equipment
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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 08-26-2008 02:33 PM
The Kinoton DCP range, which I'm sure you all know utilises the Barco light engine, does not use the pressurised cooling system, so any problems associated with that go away. Convergence is a breeze on these, much nicer than it was on the old D-CineStar machines if anyone's ever seen or worked with those. Kinoton DCP of course uses the same Communicator software etc as the Barco.
As far as I'm aware on imminent Dolby server software you can ingest whilst playing, I do remember some recent discussion about that the fast forward/reverse thing. If I remember rightly the buttons on the front panel are not implemented just now, but you can skip using the show manger client application on a PC... I may not be 100% on that, so feel free to correct me if you know different. They are noisy with all those fans, but just turn it off when it's not being used, in this age of going green and energy price increases, that should be on everyone's mind really.
I've played around with Doremi, QuVis and Dolby servers now, and have found the Dolby by far the most intuitive and user friendly.
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Demetris Thoupis
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1240
From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-28-2008 03:20 PM
I don't think that company names like Kinoton or Cinemeccanica would jeopardise risking their reputation with co-orporating with a weak video projection company. You know I am not in favour mostly for Digital projection but I would like to state the following:
Barco IS the leading company in professional home cinema applications. They have been proven more reliable and with superb quality in any application being used. If you are aware of Cedia awards, check which projection most serious installers prefer. Barco. You pay the price for the best quality.
You state that Christie employs people that have their stuff right. You need to remember the numerous times the Christie projector was redesigned due to mechanical and idiotic faults which were stated from the beginning that they worked fine like the famous Christie Basement reader. They DID eventually manage to improve it but they have not perfected so I doubt that they have their stuff right from the beginning. I believe that Christie is the first company which actually beta tests their equipment after they sell it to people waiting for feedback from on site for improvements.
Kinoton is a pioneering name in Europe. Due to the unfavourable exchange rate of Euro vs Dollar, unfortunately you people in the US (besides Steve it seems) do not really give a lot of credit to the many achievements that Kinoton has accomplished over the years. I have seen at Cinema Expo two or three years ago the DCP series and I was actually quite impressed with the quality although I state again that I am not in favour of Digital projection for many reasons which I will not state again here and start the famous film vs digital debate. I believe that Kinoton does have a good product although they do not have the advantage you gain in their 35mm projector line since other companies offer respective Digital Cinema products. I do though have to say this about Kinoton. They have the BEST after sales service and are always swift in their responses even if it is for quotations, parts or simple queries.
Cinemeccanica has been in business perhaps longer than most of us have lived! They have remained in business with their most renouned model the V5 and of course the V8 and remember that they were the first to develop in co-operation with Dolby the basement reader. They have developed a lot a proven model which, with the proper care does offer great image. I have also seen the Cinemeccanica Digital projector and it is the Brightest right now in the market since its the only one which can take xenon lamps up to 8K. No one can say that they shake since there is no intermittent cross. The construction of the pedestal might seem extreme but the electronics put in their projector justifies the size and it's lovely seeing a projector which looks like a console 35mm projector. Again you have the same issue with the unfavourable Euro vs Dollar and that is why most of you people do not favour Cinemeccanica. If you pay good attention you can achieve wonders out of these machines.
Nec: When did Nec make any professional Cinema machines? They have never touched the 35mm area and who can prove that their projectors will last in time? At least Christie, Kinoton and Cinemeccanica all have a long experience in Cinema applications with their 35mm lines.
To summarise the above, I do appreciate the fact that some companies might offer better support, after sales e.t.c. I though, do not believe that any projector should be considered better than the other. It is DIGITAL and you can set one projector to look exactly the same as the other on screen and NO ONE can tell the difference. Would anyone realise if a Digital image is coming from a Kinoton or Christie or Barco or Cinemeccanica projector? I really think not if all projectors are set up to achieve the same colour temperature, brightness, colours e.t.c. The only issues that differs is servicability, features e.t.c but the final outcome which is the image on screen is the same in all. This of course is not the same with film projectors are they all differ in steadiness, colours e.t.c since you have minimal adjustment you can do there. Now server wise, I can accept that one server is more user friendly than the other but I really doubt that one player outputs better resolution than another. The reason is that the playback comes from the same file in each server. In computer world, would watching an Mpeg4 video on a Mac look different than watching it on a PC? I doubt it. But I have to agree that the only company one should consider is someone with long proven experience in professional cinema applications like Dolby, DTS, USL and not the piano named Doremi or Qu something server. Where do these people ever had any involvement in Cinema? Sanyo who is considered one of the best projector makers for commercial applications has not even tried making yet a DCP compliant projector. They make superb projector for E-cinema but they probably realised that "is not our area of expertise so why trouble"! Of course in the future they might make but who knows.
Demetris
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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster
Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-28-2008 04:44 PM
My point was not to say these are weak companies... hardly! Were they they wold not even have the resources to pull this off. But buying someone's light engine, software and or chassis and then re badging it seems pointless to me. Indeed, why not just go right to the source? About the only instance I could see any advantage would be in countries where imports for this type of equipment are limited (India for instance) but they may be on very friendly trade relationships with the countries these companies operate in.
Also make note that a couple of the lower priced Christie projectors utilize Sanyo chassis built to Christie specs. However, they run on Christie software and are supported and repaired by Christie parts and service. You don't have to go to Sanyo for parts or service.
Pete,
All parts to manufacture anything come from some manufacturer someplace including the DMD's, and other semiconductors. In the case of the big three however they completely build their own light engines... meaning formatter board with the DMD, prism, mount, etc. The rest of the boards to make it all happen come from TI except the input interface board. This is only because much of the science and engineering behind DLP is still a very closely guarded secret at TI... most of these manufacturers would gladly produce their own system boards if they were given the chance.
quote: Demetris Thoupis
You state that Christie employs people that have their stuff right.
Yes, a number of years back Christie did a big house cleaning and got rid of alot of people that were bogging things down. The new folks hired on to replace these people have done more positive things (both film and digital) than the other people did the entire time they worked there. In the last three years Christie has done an amazing turn around. The digital folks are complately seperate from the projector folks in this case a nd always have been. The digital folks being in Canada and the projector folks in California.
Christie does not beta test on the customers buck although they may have a customer do some beta testing for them. The field beta testing of the new "M" and several problems found with it are what has been delaying it's release. Now scheduled for October. We will be demoing one here in a few weeks to also give Christie some feedback.
quote: Demetris Thoupis
Would anyone realise if a Digital image is coming from a Kinoton or Christie or Barco or Cinemeccanica projector?
To answer your question... YES! I can get a good idea by how much snap there is in the image. CP2000 and ZX typically have a much wider contrast range in the image, especially in the blacks. Contrast range isn't affected as much by the image resolution capabilities at this level as it is by the prism and lens being used. Older Christies made before the ZX was released definately look identical to a BARCO or NEC of the same era. They don't have the good optical coating that was used on the light engine starting with the introduction of the ZX.
Mark
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 08-28-2008 10:31 PM
If someone knows the history better, please correct me...but...
As I understand it, TI is not licensing any more DCinema entities. In fact, NEC was able to become a DCinema manufacturer when DP dropped their license...in fact, I think they sold it to NEC. It is not like just anyone can declare they are making DCinema projectors, call TI and open up.
Next....look at the DLP manufacturers for DCinema...they were are DLP manufacturers prior to DCinema coming on line...they already had a relationship with TI and already had the infrastructure in the video world to develop the product. This is not the case for a traditional cinema equipment manufacturer...before you speak the Christie name...they BOUGHT the technology/background by buying Electrohome...that our Canadian friends would be familiar with long before DCinema...in fact, where do you think CP2000s are made?
So, if you are a traditional Cinema equipment manufacturer, it is going to be much easier to partner with someone that has been well versed in the new technology rather than start from scratch. Note too, these video manufacturers have DCinema as but on tiny division of their much larger operation. Most Cinema manufacturers have film based systems as a major part of their business. It would cost a fortune in money and a large amount of time to get up to speed...even IF the DCinema license was available.
What a traditionally film company can offer is a broad experience of what exhibitors/service techs will want in a projection device. In a sense, they are "value addded resellers." Barco makes out because they sell their technology and more units every time one of their licensees sell a unit. It is a win-win. If a customer goes to Kinoton normally for film equipment and likes the company a lot, then they will want to continue to obtain that level of service. If only Barco, NEC, and Christie were offered...a choice would need to be made and, from Barco's stand point, it might not be Barco (since the customer, in this example, is predisposed to buy Kinoton)...a lost sale.
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