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Author Topic: DM8 Plus Software Download Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 02-11-2018 12:32 PM                        Agreed with Carsten. The "It's my computer, and I have the right never to update it" position is analogous to "It's my car, and I have the right never to replace the tires and brake pads." Doubtless Microsoft are afraid that they would be the target of a lawsuit, or already have been, resulting from an unpatched Windows installation falling victim to malware that disrupted a mission critical operation. It's like the theater I encountered recently in which their projector and server had not had a software or firmware update since it was installed in 2013, and had refused to allow us to install one at every single planned maintenance visit since, asserting the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra. Then, one day, we got an emergency call because the subtitles wouldn't appear on an SMPTE DCP, and 450 customers were demanding a refund.  |  IP: Logged Martin McCaffery Film God Posts: 2481 From: Montgomery, AL Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-11-2018 12:35 PM                        Your computer, for now. The migration to the cloud, like it or not, will probably mean you just rent a portal in the near future. Like MaBell before the breakup.  |  IP: Logged Ioannis Syrogiannis Expert Film Handler Posts: 147 From: Reykjavík, Iceland Registered: Jun 2005 posted 02-11-2018 01:03 PM                     quote: Leo Enticknap The "It's my computer, and I have the right never to update it" position is analogous to "It's my car, and I have the right never to replace the tires and brake pads." In the other hand, if I never update the software of a system, I don't put in serious danger the lives of me and many others. In a personal computer, even more, where there are ways to ensure that the system's health may be restored, if compromised. I find nobody here to suggest not ever updating a system. Even more, a cinema projection system like the one in the example. If you think about it in such manner, don't you also find the analogy to be somewhat exaggerating?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-11-2018 02:57 PM                     On the issue of patches for software WRITE IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!!!!!  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-11-2018 04:10 PM                     I see Steve’s point but I’m with Carsten on this. Yes, MS have lost their Mind with the endless upgrades they are shovelling down our systems every other day. But I see why they’ve designed W10 to allow the most critical updates even with no user consensus. It’s a complex subject. And I see both parties’ point. MS is dealing with millions of systems out there and I see why they want control. I don’t really see an alternative. You, Steve, are an exception as you know what you’re doing with your PC. The remaining 99% would just put their PC and their LAN to in danger. In fact MS could let you disable the updates if Ethernet devices were disabled as well. Gordon, I watched a video of a former MS employee once. He claimed to be parte of the test team and claimed that now users were MS’ testers. Indeed it seems that very little testing is performed nowadays on software but with the plethora of different systems, platforms, software and hardware - not to mention users and hackers - that Windows have to deal with it’s impossible to design a system that does not require updates - I reckon  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-11-2018 04:51 PM                     Marco (and the rest)...Microsoft has no leg to stand on. The simple option of disable updates, in its various levels, is the solution they already had. By default, the systems ship reay to update automatically. If YOU want to change that, then YOU take the responsibility of that outcome. It isn't like MS has an aversion to popping up a big fat warning when you do something they don't recommend. You click "I'll take the responsibility" and move on. It is simple and would work for everyone. It is the same as the automatic Firewall. There are times, when troubleshooting, that the fast thing is to defeat it (to rule out a firewall conflict)...it will put up a defeatable warning flag while the firewall is down. To put this in our industry. Let's say you have a TMS/LMS system, take the prevalent TCC by Hollywood Software (aka Cinedigm). The vast majority are running on Windows Server 2003 (they also have a Server 2008 based approved image). It doesn't matter that it is running on an antiquated OS because they are running ONE program (or a collection of the same program). The only updates are via Hollywood software and the advantage of this is that their system in their office exactly matches EVERY field system. Once MS updates go on, you can get conflicts as the MS updates are trying to fix/protect things that don't apply. The TMS isn't supposed to be used for surfing and is reasonably locked down (wakes up to a user shell so they never are in the Windows environment). I sure wouldn't want that sort of program being forced into updates. I maintain quite a few of those systems and I just don't have much in the way of problems from them (anymore). In fact, it has gotten very stable for us in recent months as some TCC patches were directed at improving the responsiveness with Dolby DSS servers. But even in the field with a conventional laptop that runs proprietary programs, it is MY computer and I'll decide when and where it gets its updates. Because it does connect to the interwebs some, I do keep it reasonably current, including antivirus software. BTW...have you noticed on a Windows computer (going back about as far as Win3), the more you allow MS to update, the SLOWER the boot up is? Another reason to restrict MS...they don't care about what they do to your productivity. I'm sure Win10 proponents will say that they've fixed that but Win10 hasn't been out long enough to really know its long-term effects. Its short-term effects, for me have been nasty with things that stop working suddenly have Billy got in there.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 02-12-2018 08:19 AM                     Steve - you are free to never receive Updates for a WIN10 machine - just never plug it into the interweb and you are safe. The moment you participate, you have a responsibility. Yes, that responsibility may a first be with Microsoft to provide fault-free 100% software, but, as it stands, this doesn't work. If there was a known thread circulating around, as has happened in the past, you would expect your OS or AV company to spread fixes/updates as quickly and as efficient as possible. That doesn't work if people postpone or disable updates. Again, I am not a fan of that, but the rationale behind it makes sense for the majority of users, as long as that majority threatens itself by being connected with software that has considerable security holes. You can step out of that scheme, but then, don't connect. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-12-2018 08:52 AM                     I absolutely disagree. Just because I plug into the internet has no bearing if I should then allow updates. Naturally, I can't blame MS for a virus that infects the OS because I prevented a patch that would have prevented it. But that is my risk to take. As I said, for things I do connect to the internet, I do keep them updated, on my terms. Though one could say that the TCC servers do have internet connectivity but NOBODY is surfing the web on them. They are only accessed via VPN. In the close to 9-years I've had them in service, not one virus has infected them and, as I said, stability has improved (due to Hollywood Software's continued development).  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 02-12-2018 08:54 AM                     Steve - rest assured, MS doesn't target you specifically with that update scheme. There are probably zillions of users who do not even have a clue that there is something like security updates. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-12-2018 11:38 AM                     Carsten, I DO realize that. I don't object to the shipping default position of the updates is "automatic." That takes care of the zillions of people. For those that have reason to run their equipment their way, back off and let them, at their own risk. This is a problem THEY created because they already had the solution in prior OS versions. It is Microsoft that broke it.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-12-2018 02:50 PM                     The problem is that there is also a Zillion users selecting “never notify or download updates” in W7 because it saves them the hassle of upgrading. That causes their system to become infected/unsafe and It then goes on the big pie chart that says that “xx% of PC running Windows are unsafe”. Unfortunately I don’t see a solution for that - besides maybe allowing not to update on an enterprise version, but I guess you can already do that via group policy as I said so I don’t really see a big issue here.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-12-2018 03:09 PM                        I am completely on Steve's side here. I prefer stable systems that stay that way to ones that self-mutate at random. Some proprietary software requires particular patch sets in order to receive vendor support, and the current MS scheme breaks that. As another example, some users need to do long-term number-crunching work and cannot simply reboot at will. Remember, too, that Windows 10 is effectively the only operating system that forces patches on users. No one else has ever done this before on any sort of scale, and for good reason. In any case, I believe that they should make self-patching the default, but allow users to opt-out of it at will. The right way to distribute operating system updates would be to allow users options for no patches, security patches only (essentially the LTSB scheme, which should be made available to consumers); security and bug fix patches; and security patches, bug fix patches, and feature enhancements. Unfortunately, no vendor has really offered this as such (SGI's IRIX came close, though, with separate "feature stream" and "maintenance stream" releases.)  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-12-2018 03:52 PM                     Marco, your argument doesn't hold. The only thing that becomes unsafe is my personal property. Even if it connects to the web. Presuming YOU have all of the latest Microsoftdom, you're protected. It isn't like vaccinations where if you choose to not vaccinate due to some pseudo-science belief YOU could infect someone that has a weakened immune system. Each computer is an island with whatever security it chooses to have. Microsoft can control Apple, let alone Linux. Heck, someone could write a code that uses Linux as the carrier to infect Windows (so the Linux machines don't show the symptoms but if they connect into a network with a Windows machine, it attacks). There simply is zero argument to the requirement for updates beyond good-practice. But that is an individual choice based on their circumstances. Legally, I don't think Microsoft would have a good case in the US (I can't speak for any other country). While they may have a TOS clause, I doubt it gives them the option of suspending the use of one's computer due to lack of updates/patches. That is what they would have to seek in order to force updates, which is tantamount to stealing hardware (rendering it useless) because you disallowed updates. I wouldn't want to argue that case. I REALLY wouldn't want to argue that case if it happened to a government entity. Air-gaped machines naturally would never see the webs (or shouldn't). As I recall, the US government is one reason that WinXP hung around much longer than MS wanted it to. I will NEVER accept that Microsoft should require a degree of hacking in order to prevent updates. It smells of a class-action law-suit waiting to happen. What is so stupid about it all is that the solution exists and Microsoft already had it.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-12-2018 04:03 PM                     It’s not hacking. Group policy is in the administrative section and has a proper official GUI. MS make money selling Windows. If Windows proves unsafe because Zillion of users disable the updates, MS remove that option. It makes sense to me. But I still would like to stress out that I am a firmly believer that MS have lost their mind with those upgrades!!  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-12-2018 08:47 PM                     Care to post screenshots of that UI? Here is one of my Win7Home (running on my Mac via Parallels): It is pretty straight forward and is up to the user. It isn't right on the desktop, as the title bar shows, one does have to go to "Control Panels" and dig their way in but it is a pretty logical order. Has it been MS' claim that a major flaw in their product is people not getting the updates they require? I don't doubt that the lack up timely updates has caused issues. Heck, I'm responsible for ensuring our customers are properly updated to avoid issues (i.e. SMPTE packages, Captions working, Engimas not bricking...what have you). Then again, I only do updates twice per year unless a critical update comes out to address a specific and necessary issue (ADA related or the Enigma bricking). Part of what I do, however, is also evaluate each update for what it potentially benefits, what it potentially harms to determine if we are going to go to that version. We also "beta" test new software in select locations that KNOW they are the first to receive it to ensure we don't cause a mass-epidemic. As, I'm sure you are aware, we've done beta testing in the real sense of various software whereas they are often working on software to address specific complaints we have made. With an OS update, it could be a full time job keeping up with what all of the updates are doing and what benefits or harm they bring. I generally do NOT like to be the first to receive a new version of anything (and that is across the board). Apple comes out with a new iOS...that's nice...call me when .1 comes out to fix all of the .0 bugs.  |  IP: Logged

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