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Author Topic: Gemini Man - HFR Test Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-10-2019 08:31 AM                     Part of the bottleneck is going to be the ICP in such systems. Only Series 3 projectors and beyond will have a crack 120fps/4K in either 2D or 3D. What I don't get is why a 120fps 2D offering isn't made. 60fps/3D/2K should be viable on many (and I'm hearing now/most...if the latest Dolby DSS 60fps/3D tests are true) servers. That said, with each less than stellar movie roll out of HFR, it takes potential luster away as some have termed a "bad smell."  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-10-2019 08:34 AM                     There are many versions of it. I think there is a general release 120fps 2D version and a 24fps 2D version for systems incapable of HFR. Maybe a 60fps 2D version? Also 24fps 3D. And 60fps 3D. And is there really a 120fps 4K 3D version, or is this 60fps 3D and they call it 120fps because there are two images for each 3D frame? All are 4K DCPs, I think, but 4K is playable in 2K as usual. How huge is the 120fps 4K DCP, it seems like it would be 20x a 2K 24fps version??? They had a lot of trouble with HFR 3D in the testing. Real-D seems OK with it, Master Image will do it apparently: you need to modify the setup on a Clarity for 60fps but then it won't do 24fps until it's changed back... not good if you have a mixed 3D program... and many cinemas don't have anyone I would trust to fiddle in the Clarity menu. Maybe the older MI units will do it too but I don't know what's required. I had many calls from sites with SDI servers, not so happy when they heard that they could not play anything higher than 24/30fps. So the general 3D release is 24fps, apparently. Dolby cinemas with capable hardware should get 60fps 3D, newer Imax systems with IMS2000 servers should be able to do 60 as well I think. The laser IMAX with ICMPs may be able to do 120fps 4K but I don't know for sure. maybe some "normal" cinemas will get 60fps 3D, but the whole thing has been so fricked up that I can't make sense of the release. Since what you see depends on what equipment a site has I think they've decided to leave out the HFR "feature" in marketing. I've heard a couple of interviews with Ang Lee and he really pushes the 100% CGI "young Will Smith" lead character as an astounding breakthrough in cinema ... and kinda offhand mentions HFR. Good luck getting through to Dolby or Barco support this week, they are getting MANY calls about Gemini Man. I have not seen anything except the first test clip with the flashing grid then weird groaning sounds as a plywood sheet gets shot up then an MOS scene with a motorcycle.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 10-10-2019 10:46 AM                     As far as I know, there is a very special 4k/2*120fps 3D version that will (were) only be played in a handful select special venues using brandnew Christie RGB laser projectors with their series3 electronics, installed for the occasion (same as it happened with Billy Lynn where they used non-DCI Christie Mirage projectors). They need to master dual stream/slaved CPLs in order to accomplish this, as even these latest systems can not play 4k/240fps from a single stream/mxf. All other 3D versions are 2k. Current installed DCI systems can not play 4k in 3D, even if projector or server is 4k capable. I don't know for the rest of the world, but we here only get 2D in 24fps, and 3D ONLY in HFR (2*60). That means - ALL HD-SDI systems are left out the 3D version. Only IMB/IMS systems can play the only supplied 3D version. It seems IMAX Laser are only able to play 2*60fps, while Dolby Cinema can do actual 2*120 fps (the limit for ICP based dual projection systems) The current ICMP in IMAX laser systems can not do 4k/120fps. I think, same as with the Hobbit and Billy Lynn, they don't trust higher frame rates for the 2D version, they assume the 'soapy look' will not be appreciated by the wider audiences, whereas they think that in 3D, HFR adds something. I also guess that too many sites failed on the 120fps 2D test. An ICP has a limit of 120fps in 2k, but that doesn't mean all ICP equipped systems can actually play 2k/120fps. Has anyone REALLY seen a non-24fps 2D version? Or a standard 2*24fps 3D version? I don't think so. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-10-2019 11:13 AM                     GDC issued me a 120fps 2D license for a recent server software update...this was for an SX2000AR so I would presume it can handle it. I believe the ICMP and its later incarnations are 4K/3D capable (no ICP bottleneck).  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 10-10-2019 11:45 AM                     The ICMP-X should be 4k/120fps capable, but only after the series 4 projector electronics have been updated somewhere in the future, if I understood Tom Bert right. Dual-projection systems can 'easily' do 4k/3D by simply master/slaving two 2D/4k CPLs for L and R. At least up to 30fps per eye within current standards.I don't know who's actually doing it, maybe IMAX Laser and Dolby cinema when they play their own mastering breed. Then they could even do higher frame rates after their IMS OEM (Christie/Barco) have done their homework. Sony can do real 4k/3D with their DS systems. They have a config switch to allow to play 3D in 4k. I don't know the prerequisites of DCPs to have the proper specs to allow this, as currently, DCI/SMPTE/DCP specs max out at 4k/30. The Sony DS systems use a single server and media block. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 10-10-2019 01:29 PM                     The 120 FPS 3D 4K presentations I've seen at IBC were non-DCI presentations. Dolby Cinema also can do 4K 3D up to 60fps, as it's a slaved dual projector system and each setup can do up to 4K 2D at 60fps. But there isn't a whole lot of 4K 3D content out there to begin with. The limit, from what I've heard is the IMS and possibly also the NAS solution they're apparently using. I guess the 120 FPS 3D release in Dolby Vision/Dolby Cinema has been chosen to give the release an extra edge in novelty compared to IMAX, as they could also do 4K 3D at 60fps.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 10-10-2019 01:50 PM                     If I were them (and I'm not, thankfully), I would have issued it: 2D: 2K or 4K/24, 2K/60, 2K/120 3D: 2K/24, 2K/60 (and maybe 4K/30) I've said it before an I'll say it again, they are convolving 3D and HFR when the acceptance or rejection of each are not necessarily tied to each other. This is a real dual camera 3D shoot, as I understand it, so I can see having a good 3D rollout. As for release, you have to have the 24fps stuff or you exclude too large an audience and theatre capability. For 3D, most systems can/should be able to handle 60fps, if they would issue it at the proper bandwidth (I've set up most of my Dolby 3D systems to handle up to 60fps since I'd rather not go back for any wacky title...I set up for 24, 25, 30, 48 and 60). So for those that like 3D and HFR, the 3D/60 should be a sufficient same of those to see if there is acceptance. For 2D, most systems can handle 24 and 60fps (if formatted right) so again, removing the 3D negativity from the title will let people see if they like HFR. And since this is a test-title of sorts, there will be a few that can handle 120fps 2D to see if it makes a difference but having matched 2D/60 and 3D/60 versions under one roof means that one is evaluating the process and deciding if the issue is 3D or HFR (or both).  |  IP: Logged Andrew Leist Film Handler Posts: 8 From: Culver City, CA, United States Registered: Jul 2014 posted 10-10-2019 10:35 PM                        I saw the demo of the new Cinity system (dual Christie RGB lasers set to 28fL, HDR, WCG) last Friday at the TLC Chinese Theatre and they showed Gemini Man clips in 3D (I think it was 120fps). It was set-up just for the demo and the premiere on Sunday, scheduled to be removed after. The projection was beautiful… terrific black, and almost shielded my eyes when a flashlight was pointed at the camera.  |  IP: Logged Tom Bert Expert Film Handler Posts: 134 From: Belgium Registered: Apr 2010 posted 10-11-2019 07:07 AM                     quote: Carsten Kurz The ICMP-X should be 4k/120fps capable, but only after the series 4 projector electronics have been updated somewhere in the future, if I understood Tom Bert right. Other way around: the S4 projectors are 4K120-ready and will yield a 4K120-capable system after the ICMP electronics have been updated "somewhere in the future" (current bottleneck that brings system spec to 4K60 is the ICMP-X)  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 10-14-2019 05:58 PM                     I have heard a few reports that the Dolby Cinema 120fps presentations showed visible pixelation. Is it possible that these systems can not do proper 2k->4k interpolation/scaling at higher frame rates? The 3D-DCP is 2k, while the projectors are 4k. Do the Dolby Cinema systems still use a classic ICP? - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-14-2019 09:35 PM                     I was under the impression the few Dolby Cinema locations showing Gemini Man in 120fps 3D were doing so in 2K. I think the image is not being up-scaled to 4K. If the pixel grid is clearly visible then the theater's projection focus must be pretty good.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 10-15-2019 05:24 AM                     quote: Carsten Kurz I have heard a few reports that the Dolby Cinema 120fps presentations showed visible pixelation. Is it possible that these systems can not do proper 2k->4k interpolation/scaling at higher frame rates? The 3D-DCP is 2k, while the projectors are 4k. Do the Dolby Cinema systems still use a classic ICP? Dolby is pretty secretive about their Dolby Cinema setup, but I doubt they're using a classic ICP, because of the HDR setup. They need to control both the DLP based light engine and the segment-dimmable integrator rod thing that they likely use to increase contrast. I've seen 2K features in Dolby Cinema before, they didn't look pixelated, just a bit blurry. It's clear they're not just quadrupling pixels, but they apply some form of scaling algorithm. Maybe that breaks down at 120FPS and reverts to simple quadrupling, which might result in pretty blocky artifacts if you're sitting close.  |  IP: Logged Tom Bert Expert Film Handler Posts: 134 From: Belgium Registered: Apr 2010 posted 10-15-2019 02:08 PM                     Could it be they're warping?  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 10-15-2019 02:18 PM                     I know early systems used the Christie Duo mirror system to align, and that includes a warping/geometry transformation option. Wether that pixelation was caused by this, I don't know. I do know though that the person who reported it is knowledgeable and has never noticed pixelation in Dolby Cinemas before. I trust his word and it must have been pretty obvious at least from closer seats. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 10-15-2019 08:01 PM                     I believe the Christie DUO mirror setup was only used for the period in which Dolby Vision was not yet implemented. They were running on unmodified 2 x 3P Christie projectors during that period. Once the modified projectors got in, I believe they removed the mirror setup entirely. Yet, you can still use warping to compensate for overlap in a setup without mirrors, even the Christie DUO setup allows for this. It's not clear if Dolby is using this for their Dolby Vision setup. Digitally warping the image would incur another processing step and doing this at 120 FPS with a 4K image, will require quite some processing. So, it may be a factor, but it's pretty much just guesswork.  |  IP: Logged

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