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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Barco Series 4 (Page 2)

 
This topic comprises 8 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8   
Author Topic: Barco Series 4
Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 04-24-2019 04:34 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is my understanding that the ICP will be Barco developed to be used with the S4 so anyone's IMB can be used. At the time of CinemaCon, GDC and QSC IMBs were being tested with it, I believe Dolby (Doremi) was the one notable that wasn't in the mix yet but I think I heard something was moving on that front by the end of the show. One would presume that there is the usual, but annoying, in-fighting amongst the various companies.

As for the ICMP...it has been a mixed bag for me. It is my most troublesome per/unit of the systems we've sold (IMS2000 remains the most trouble-free). The ICMP definitely has its good points (and I recently verified it will definitely play right from the CRU drive via USB 3 (and it even worked in USB 2 but I didn't try for long). I can't stand that it won't allow DCP playback while the projector is not on a DCP format (e.g. HDMI input). It is a feature that, thus far, NONE of my customers want or like. It also doesn't handle anamorphic lenses and scales in a different manner than the ICP. But mostly, I want better reliability from it. I also prefer non-projector specific servers since I may not have a choice on the projector brand.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 04-24-2019 04:47 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On a side note, but quite obviously - T.I. now has a 0.98" 4k chipset.
Will we only see that in Barcos S4 machines?

- Carsten

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Stephan Shelley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 854
From: castro valley, CA, usa
Registered: Nov 2014

- posted 04-24-2019 04:56 PM      Profile for Stephan Shelley   Email Stephan Shelley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
At Cinemacon Christie said they were working on some models that will the .98 4K chips to be released in the near future.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 04-24-2019 05:26 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would welcome some clarification on what is meant by the terms "Series 3" and "Series 4."

My understanding is as follows:

Series 1 - light engine plus formatter interface board and TI board; 2K only. Secure input is only through dual HD-SDI.

Series 2 - light engine plus ICP; 2K or 4K. Only secure input options are an Enigma board, IMB, IMS or ICMP.

Series 3 - Only the DLP chips are made by TI; the rest of the formatting and secure signal processing hardware is produced by the projector manufacturer, with potentially more flexibility as to input options, resolutions and frame rates supported.

Series 4 - ???

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 04-24-2019 05:32 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Series 1 and 2 were clear distinctions. I guess S3 and S4 now can mean anything. Some manufacturers call their system series 3 if it omits TIs original cinema electronics (no T.I. ICP). I guess you could still call these new Barco systems series 3 - although Barco never called their ICMP systems series 3. Probably because they were designed for series 2 projectors.
Calling it series 4 is partly justified because the ICMP-X is a step further from the previous ICMP. But it certainly is also a bit of a marketing move, also targeting the 4k resolution.

- Carsten

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

- posted 04-24-2019 05:46 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The all new shiny series 4K... or 4X? [Wink]

But yes, Series 1 and Series 2 had some clear distinctions between the multiple TI platform integrators.

Ever since, you can see that manufacturers like Barco started to develop more around the limitations of the TI platform. The first so product that bypassed the traditional ICP was probably the start of the "Series 3", since it also bypassed some of the former Series 2 limitations.

Now, whatever the baseline is for a "Series 4" projector from Barco isn't clearly defined, up until now it looks like:
- It's based on their new RGB laser light source engine
- A 4K light engine featuring TI's 0.98" DLP DMDs
- An ICMP that can do 120fps @ 4K (which is a horrendous amount of bytes per second...) and most likely a custom ICP that can do similar specs.

Will their flagship lasers also get a "Series 4" overhaul? And what about their entry level products? Probably still closely guarded secrets. [Wink]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 04-25-2019 12:43 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So if you have access to the My Barco site, they list the spares for the S4 with the list prices.

The laser modules were not as cheap as I was lead to believe at CinemaCon though not horrendously expensive (except RED, which is a bit pricey). The S4 light-engine is as expensive as the full size 4K light engine too.

The new ICP module (ICP-D), which will work in S2 projector is less than half of the TI version (Series 2 only).

Still no word on how they are going to price out compared to existing models.

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

- posted 04-25-2019 01:43 AM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The video was a preview. This is the final public version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPSmZmQzhvU&feature=youtu.be

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

- posted 04-25-2019 03:06 AM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Carsten Kurz
How can we be sure that replacement parts for these very special light sources will be available in 5,8,10 years? What are Barcos thoughts on that? Will it be possible to design a matching laser light source from different parts in the future?
There is the "hard evidence": we offer extended warranty which makes it legally binding for us to support these products for many years

There is the "soft evidence": Barco has a track record of keeping systems supported and compatible. The modular design of the lightsource also mitigates the risk: in case of changes on laser technology we don't have to redesign the complete light source, but just a plates

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

- posted 04-25-2019 03:55 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
The new ICP module (ICP-D), which will work in S2 projector is less than half of the TI version (Series 2 only).
I guess it will be subject to the same compatibility restrictions on an S2 as on an S4 machine, so we need to wait for IMS2000/3000 compatibility. Otherwise, the reduced price is really hard to ignore.

Tom, if you're still available, some other questions that came to my mind:

1. There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding the ICMP-X specs.
The advertorial video I linked, claimed 120 fps @4K "ready", wile the specs on the Barco site list:

- DCI 4K 2D up to 60fps
- DCI 4K 3D (24 or 30 fps per eye)
- DCI High Frame Rates 2K 3D up to 120fps (60fps per eye)
- JPEG 2000 bit-rates up to 625Mb

Those specs look more like those of the "Series 3" ICMP specs. Not that I expect that many of us will be playing a whole lot of 120 fps 4K content, it would be interesting to know whether this is old information or whether this 4K/120p is a possible future upgrade.

2. The specs list two "alternative input licenses":

- ICMP License for HDMI 2.0 HDR
- ICMP License for Live IP

So, does this mean that you support 4K Rec.2020 via HDMI, but you require a separate license? If so, is this feature available right away or an expected future upgrade?

Regarding the "Live IP" license, would it be possible to get an overview of what protocols are supported with this license and at what bandwidths it can reliably operate?

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

- posted 04-25-2019 05:17 AM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Ioannis Syrogiannis
I guess that, since the “B” lenses are made for/used on a different size of DMD (while the “C” ones are for the same) the same lens may or may not be appropriate for the same screen (auditorium). Meaning, the lens interchange is a granted benefit for replacing C series mostly, not for anyone.
The lens throw spec becomes longer. We have a knowledge base article on this (requires access to mybarco): https://www.barco.com/nl/support/sp4k-25/knowledge-base/KB4958

quote: Ioannis Syrogiannis
From what is already known, meaning that the older (S2) ICPs are not to be used with the S4 equipment, we may deduct that the ICMPs won’t be interchangeables too. Please correct me if I miss something here Tom.
That is correct: ICMP-X is backwards compatible, ICMP is not forward compatible. ICP is also not forward compatible.

quote: Ioannis Syrogiannis
At the same time, we don’t know if the Communicator we already know and use for the rest of the Barco equipment (or the attached Communicator Touch Panels) is to keep up with the S4.
We also don’t know if and under what conditions the new communicator’s web interface will be available in sleep(/stand by/low power eco) mode. Nor if the web interface will be available for other uses, like upgrading the software or examining the log files.
Communicator will continue to exist for S2, but will not work on S4. Web Communicator will also only work on S4.

In Eco mode, you'll see a basic "I'm sleeping" [Wink] page. From that page you'll be able to power the unit up and get to the Web Communicator login page.

The web interface will be fully functional: including (automated) software updates, log file exctraction, ...

quote: Carsten Kurz
Wondering what the 'X' in ICMP-X stands for
Nothing exotic I'm afraid: just "extra". As in extra suppport for SSD and extra ingest speed.

The projector is 4K120 ready, but the ICMP-X as launched is based off the "old" ICMP and limited to 4K60. Once we upgrade the ICMP-X, we'll have a fully functional 4K120 system.

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

- posted 04-25-2019 01:17 PM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Leo Enticknap
I would welcome some clarification on what is meant by the terms "Series 3" and "Series 4."
Series 1: everything "pre DCI spec"
Series 2: product architecture with DCI compliance, CineLink, ...
[As Leo described. both were official/common TI definition; applicable across Barco, Christie and NEC]

Series 3: (Barco definition) "a Series 2 projector with ICMP"
Series 4: (Barco definition) new projector design as presented a CCON2019 (new engine, new lightsource, new electronics,...); the defining common parameter will -very likely- be the CCB and how that interfaces the projector to the outside world.
[no more common TI-definition of Series 3 or Series 4]

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Now, whatever the baseline is for a "Series 4" projector from Barco isn't clearly defined, up until now it looks like:
- It's based on their new RGB laser light source engine
- A 4K light engine featuring TI's 0.98" DLP DMDs
- An ICMP that can do 120fps @ 4K (which is a horrendous amount of bytes per second...) and most likely a custom ICP that can do similar specs.
As mentioned above, the best common denominator for what makes "Series 4" is -probably- the whole interface to the system (defined by the CCB); as well as the "service interface" (system architecture)

quote: Steve Guttag
The new ICP module (ICP-D), which will work in S2 projector
Note that ICP-D is not validated or approved to work on S2 projectors. Don't try to plug one in [Eek!]

quote: Marcel Birgelen
So, does this mean that you support 4K Rec.2020 via HDMI, but you require a separate license? If so, is this feature available right away or an expected future upgrade?

Regarding the "Live IP" license, would it be possible to get an overview of what protocols are supported with this license and at what bandwidths it can reliably operate?
The HDMI HDR license is not new, it has existed for over a year on ICMP. The license enables the HDR capabilities that are different in the HDMI2.0 vs HDMI2.0a spec

The LiveIP feature is close to being released: the supported formats will be in the manual. MPEG2, H.264; audio up to 5.1; ...

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

- posted 04-25-2019 04:39 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No chance for something like NDI support? [Smile]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 04-25-2019 05:30 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Note that ICP-D is not validated or approved to work on S2 projectors. Don't try to plug one i
You should check Barco's spare parts for the S4...the ICP-D is listed to work in series 2 or 4!

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Tom Bert
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Belgium
Registered: Apr 2010

- posted 04-26-2019 03:19 AM      Profile for Tom Bert   Email Tom Bert   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
You should check Barco's spare parts for the S4...the ICP-D is listed to work in series 2 or 4!
So I did... and slapped some people internally accordingly [Razz]

quote: Marcel Birgelen
No chance for something like NDI support?
What is NDI?

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