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Michael

I am waiting to hear back from my friend.

He talked with someone who did the restore on the picture.
That person said that the film was a 3 Track Stereo mix.
That was the way Columbia released. Columbia did that with "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" (L/C/R). As soon as I hear back from him, I will post the info. He knows his business on sound and film.
He Does Film Right.

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Bill,
I apologize in advance if I have misinterpreted the intent and tone of your post. That said, what is it you are seeking to confirm and relay to me??? I don't recall asking you any questions on this topic.... A question was asked in this thread by another member concerning the audio format (magnetic or digital) of the new 70mm print of Lord Jim to which I responded since (a) I knew the answer, and (b) no other forum members had yet responded. You don't actually think the print was mag, do you? I was at the screening...I know the projectionists...I visited the booth...I saw the print...

And regarding the 3-track thing, the original question wasn't regarding the channel layout, so I didn't address it. But it seems like you're implying to me that the print couldn't have been DTS because it was "only" 3-channel instead of five or six.

Regarding 3-track mixes. I think history has revealed that quite a few movies were mixed and released in this fashion. Columbia Pictures (and other studios) may have used that approach on numerous films, but what evidence exists to show that all of their multi-channel films were done in that manner, as you suggest? 35mm prints of The Guns Of Navarone and Lawrence Of Arabia were both 4-track (L-C-R-S), weren't they? And what about the numerous productions of theirs that were mixed and released mono (many of which were released in 70mm blow-up internationally)?

Paul Linfesty wrote:

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But wouldn't HELLO DOLLY have been originally mixed with three stage channels in mind, and only at the last stage, be "faked" uip to 5 stage channels? The original release of LOA was done this way. I thought most 70mm films from the mid sixties on were done in this manner (up through Baby-Boom Dolby format films).

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Paul,
You were at the screening of Hello, Dolly!, what did it sound like to you? To my ears, it seemed to have five genuine stage channels. The directionalized dialgue often seemed to emanate from channels two and/or four (the inner side channels rather than the extreme sides). At least that is what it sounded like to me from where I was seated.

In speaking with one of the American Cinematheque/Egyptian Theatre projectionists recently regarding the recent 70mm screenings, Patton was in a five stage channel layout, as well. 2001: A Space Odyssey (70mm mag print), on the other hand, appears to have been "faked-up" from three to five stage channels (though I bet this will be disputed by the experts out there!).

Similar to my comments above regarding 3-track mixes, history has revealed that quite a few of the original era "70mm Six-Track" productions didn't have genuine six-track mixes; many appear to have been three- or four-track (maybe even some two-tracks, and others seem to have even been mono). This seems to have been done on a title-by-title basis. I'm not sure that it would be safe to assume or guess which films from a particular studio or from a particular year range were mixed one way or the other. I know I don't wish to take a stab trying to guess which ones were in which format! Obviously, if one knew a particular mixing facility was equipped, say, only for four-track (such as some facilities in the U.K., hence the four-track status of some British productions) then one could figure out the mix status of certain films. But without knowing the mixing facility or seeing some documentation or speaking with the mixers (and even that's never conclusive when memory comes into play), one would have to deal with this on a title-by-title basis.

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To my ears, it seemed to have five genuine stage channels. The directionalized dialgue often seemed to emanate from channels two and/or four (the inner side channels rather than the extreme sides). At least that is what it sounded like to me from where I was seated.

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I have to be honest here. I'm not sure I would have the aural sophistication to be able to tell between 5 "genuine" stage channels and the so-called "European" method of creating 5 stage channels from 3. Obviously, regardless of how they were initially recorded, they were certainly being reproduced from 5 stage channels. I was in the balcony for both shows, and for 2001, WAY on the upper right-hand corner (next to a post holding up the rear surrounds). I have been under the assumption the genuine 5 channel mixes had died out completely, but I certainly have no direct knowledge to that effect, and certainly defer to those who do.

Bill, I'm convinced McKenna's Gold (also Columbia)had a surround track, based on a rather cutting remark by the NY Times reviewer at the time of release. I'm not sure I would use Guess Who's Coming to Dinner as an example of a studio's mix policy, since this was a small scale drama in 1.85 (I only remember first learning this title was originally released in 3-channel from reading the back of the DVD case).

I also may be misinterpreting that the "faked" method was employed for LOA. My interpretation is based on a "projected finishing schedule" reproduced in the book "Lawrence of Arabia" by L. Robert Morris and Lawrence Raskin. This list shows the following:
Nov. 16 3-Track stereo stereo dub complete.
Nov. 23 4-Track stereo and 35mm and F.V. dubs and transfers complete.
Nov. 23 Send show print for striping and 6 track stereo recording.
Nov. 30 View final show 70mm print

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Yes, I seam to remember surround in the "McKenna's Gold". I also
remember surround in Columbia's 4 Track prints of "Guns of Navarone".
It was in the last reel. We ran a late show in the mid 80's of "Guns
of Navarone" (4 Track) in the Chinese main house. The only reason
I stated "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" was it was the first title
to pop in my head. Another film that had a good 4 Track print was
"All That Jazz".

Paul

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Let's clear up the question at least about 2001. I can tell unequivocally that 2001 was a standard 5 channels behind the screen with a single surround channel mix; I am assuming that is what we are meaning when referring to "genuine" 5 channel sound.

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Not at all. I'm referring to a common practice in the sixties of mixing for a 70mm film using only three stage channels instead of 5 as a way of reducing time in the mixing/re-recording stage. Then, an additional step is taken where the sum of L and C is used (at less volume) to create a LC track and the sum of C and R are used to create a RC track. Whether this happens for a pre-print or actually is recorded at the time of sounding the print, I don't know. The film print will have the standard 5 screen channels, however, and should be reproduced as such. With films like this, however, theatres with three stage channels could ignore these additional tracks. This method has been referred to the "European" method, but spread to widespread use in the U.S. I have no idea which titles used it and which didn't, but I'm willing to believe most 35mm to 70mm blow-ups employed this method. Some 70mm titles that used it included 2001 (I've seen several references to this), Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines, and Sound of Music.

Now, I will admit the directional dialog did seem to be far more natural (and subtle) on Hello Dolly then on an almost "jumping" effect on 2001. Is this a sign of the skill of the mixer, or of the type of re-recording used (genuine 5-channel vs. 3channels "faked up")?

Mac Kenna - both 70 and 35mag had a very lively surround track - not only effect sounds, but the main song, Old Turkey Buzzard came "from upstairs".
Dolly had a beautiful use of all five front channels - including dialogue -- Think back: Reel one, with the young couple argueing with Walther Matthau, while the barber tries to do his job: They are running around from speaker to speaker very natural. "Thank You for the honor of Your visit" -SLAM ! (slam in far right ch.)
Those mag. men - almost no surround sound hearable - but something there was...
In Denmark, we never (until "Hook", i think) saw a test loop, and therefore never had the opportunity to adjust for a specific print, giving not the best results. -The Great Race (Warner / Blake Edwards 1965) ran for months a the first run theatre without anybody ever hearing a sound from the surround, -and so again at the 1975 reissue (same print). I ran in in between, and knew, the surround was filled with effects and music, and after a visit in the booth during intermission, and a screwdriver used just on the feeling - there it was. 70mm mag sound always had bad conditions around here. I think, we could have had much better screenings than we ever had, if techs and management had been more eager, then...

We ran a 70MM of "The Great Race" in the mid 80's at the Chinese.
The surrounds on the opening credit cards sounded great.

"Hello Dolly" had a wonderful full 5 on stage mix.

Here is the answer from my friend. Both "Hello Dolly" & "Lord Jim"
were presented in DTS. "Lord Jim" was 3 Track only (no surround).
Allegedly thats the original mix and Columbia did not want to
temper with it.

"We at Warner Brothers are extremely modest, when talking about "The Great Race", -but we'll have to admit........." and so on
-quote from the trailer - which was in glorious 70mm !!

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I'd like to elaborate on this discussion, for those interested, by quoting a portion of audio engineer and professor Tomlinson Holman's book 5.1 Surround Sound: Up And Running (2000/Focal Press). This passage, along with Steve Kraus's clear and informative explanation posted previous to this, will (hopefully) help clear up the myth that Dolby Labs "forced" the industry to abandon five screen-channel mixes in favor of a three-channel approach. It seems to me that Dolby's efforts were, in many ways, a welcome improvement.

"The beginnings of the idea [creating low frequency enhancement/effects in a 70mm mix] seem to have come up in 1977 from the requirements of Gary Kurtz, producer of a then little-known film called Star Wars. At the time, it seemed likely that there would be inadequate low-frequency headroom in the three front channels in theaters to produce the amount of bass that seemed right for a war in space (waged in a vacuum!). A problem grew out of the fact that by the middle 1970's, multichannel film production used only three front channels—left, center, and right (two 'extra' loudspeaker channels called Left Extra and Right Extra, in between left and center, and center and right, were used in the 1950's Todd-AO and Cinerama formats). The loudspeakers employed in most theaters were various models of Altec-Lansing Voice of the Theater. A problem with these loudspeakers was that although they use horn-loaded operation across much of the woofer's operating range for high efficiency, and thus high-level capability, below about 80 Hz the small size of the short horn became ineffective, and the speaker reverted to 'bass reflex' operation with lower efficiency. In addition, the stiff-suspension, short-excursion drivers could not produce much level at lower frequencies, and the 'wing walls' surrounding the loudspeakers that supported the bass had often been removed in theaters. For this combination of reasons, both low-frequency response and headroom were quite limited.

Ioan Allen and Steve Katz of Dolby Labs knew that many older theaters were still equipped with five front-channels, left over from the original 70mm format. So, their idea was to put the 'unused' channels back into service just to carry added low-frequency content, something that would help distinguish the 70mm theater experience from the more ordinary one expected of a 35mm release at the time. Gary Kurtz asked for a reel of Capricorn One to be prepared in several formats and played at the Academy theater. The format using left extra and right extra loudspeakers for added low-frequency level capability won. Thus was invented the 'Baby Boom' channel, as it was affectionately named, born of necessity. Just six months after Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind was the first picture to use dedicated subwoofers, installed just for the purpose of playing the Baby Boom channel."

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I apologize to everyone for not being clear in my posts. Sorry.

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Why are you apologizing? Everything you've posted seemed clear to me.

If this is what this is concerning, my reference to "genuine" channels was interpreted correctly by you; it was another individual who I suspect didn't understand what I meant.