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Topic: 'X-Men Origins: Wolverine' Leaked Online

Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-14-2009 10:00 AM

Anslem -

You're wasting your time trying to reason with this guy. Advocates of illegal file sharing are convinced they're not hurting anyone and they'll never change their minds. They also think they're poor innocent victims when the "law" finally catches up with them and slaps them with a huge fine.

For the record, I have not seen the "Wolverine" work print, but that doesn't really say much....I probably won't see the real thing when we play it either!

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Janusz Antkiewicz
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Wroclaw, Dolny Slask, Poland
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 04-14-2009 11:04 AM

Mike,

with all due respect but you miss the point by a mile. Nobody's trying to convince anybody; we're all having a proper discussion here-I've always thought that's what fora are for.

Turns out that playing a devil's advocate is a tough task.
I knew that sooner or later somebody would come up and say the discussion is pointless just because they have the law behind their backs- and that's sort of argument that cannot be undermined. The idea is to look at the facts critically i.e. devote some time to analyzing it. Then you might think that the world is not black-and-white and there are two sides to every coin (don't know if it's the right expression [Smile]

but you get the idea).

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-14-2009 11:09 AM

To borrow a line from Mike Heenan, I'll just say:
[sleep]

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 04-14-2009 11:12 AM

What "side" of your coin makes downloading OK?

Somehow, I don't think you could convince the owners of the stolen content that your rationale is correct.

And as for having the "law at my back", that's all I need. Don't like it? Change the law. Any rationale you come up with won't make it right, polite discussions or not.

Agreed...

[sleep]

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Janusz Antkiewicz
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Wroclaw, Dolny Slask, Poland
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 04-14-2009 11:27 AM

As for

: if you're not interested in a discussion, just don't participate. Plain and simple. There are so many interesting topics out there on these forums, why you waste your time over here?

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 04-14-2009 11:42 AM

quote: Janusz Antkiewicz
don't you think that some things (e.g. consumers' behaviour connected with the products they do/don't buy) aren't ruled by common sense? If your friend downloads stuff without buying it afterwards doesn't mean that the majority of consumers do it the same way.

That's completely broken logic. That's the same kind of reasoning that says that beating up black people was OK in the South in the past because all your friends did it too.

quote:
From your posts above it turns out I'm a thief [Wink] But are you all sure you don't have little sins on your side? [evil] Is every single programme on your hard drives legally obtained? What about taxes-are there any loopholes you use from time to time?

Yet another piece of broken logic. If I get pulled over for speeding I don't win by saying "But your honor, surely you've broken the law from time to time?" or by saying "There were lots of other people speeding too. He didn't stop those guys!"

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Janusz Antkiewicz
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Wroclaw, Dolny Slask, Poland
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 04-14-2009 12:18 PM

Chris,

As for the first quotation: I was refering to Anslem's:

quote: Anslem Rayburn
One individual I know has a lot of pirated DVDs, mostly from screen rips. He doesn't buy duplicate titles via official DVD releases, I assure you.

with which I basically disagree because he would have to know every single person on the globe for the statement to be valid, that is to support his opinion that

quote: Anslem Rayburn
Common sense tells you that if someone has already watched a movie, they are less likely to pay to watch it again. If they have downloaded a DVD quality file, they are less likely to purchase a DVD.

What he did is called Converse Fallacy of Accident

The 2nd quotation from my post that you're refering to:
what I wanted to say is that we shouldn't be too hard on others (and call them thieves [Wink]

) since we ourselves do mistakes (i.e. act against the law).

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-14-2009 01:15 PM

quote: Janusz Antkiewicz
we shouldn't be too hard on others (and call them thieves ) since we ourselves do mistakes (i.e. act against the law).

Why not? There's probably not a person alive who hasn't stolen a little something at some point. That doesn't lower the "standard" for what constitutes theft.

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Janusz Antkiewicz
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Wroclaw, Dolny Slask, Poland
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 04-14-2009 01:41 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but you claim the right to call somebody "a thief" for doing the same thing that you probably did in the past/will do in the future?

Isn't that called hypocrisy ?

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Jack Ondracek
Film God

Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 04-14-2009 01:50 PM

Why are you justifying this by turning a fact back on the people who, rightly, point out that it is wrong.

Whether they or I may (or may not) have done the same thing does not make it right, nor does it justify it for you.

I used to get this same noise from my kids, before they grew up, and some of my customers try the same...

"sir, you need to stop honking your horn".

"why? that guy over there is doing the same thing".

[Roll Eyes]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-14-2009 02:07 PM

quote: Janusz Antkiewicz
Correct me if I'm wrong but you claim the right to call somebody "a thief" for doing the same thing that you probably did in the past/will do in the future?

Isn't that called hypocrisy?

No. It isn't.

The actions define the crime. Not the person casting the charge. If you download pirated movies, music, etc. then you are indeed a thief. The background of the person who may call you a thief makes no difference. That is irrelevant. You're still breaking the law.

You can throw two convicted murderers in the same jail cell with each other. One can call the other a murderer and still be correct by that call regardless of what he did himself. Perhaps the other guy can try to throw the "hypocrite" response, but it doesn't change the fact he is indeed a convicted murderer.

As to the charge of hypocrisy, a real hypocrite is someone who actively campaigns against a particular activity (such as downloading pirated movies) while secretly continuing to engage in the same illegal activity he decries in public. I don't see anyone here fitting that description.

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Janusz Antkiewicz
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Wroclaw, Dolny Slask, Poland
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 04-14-2009 02:50 PM

quote: Bobby Henderson
You can throw two convicted murderers in the same jail cell with each other. One can call the other a murderer and still be correct by that call regardless of what he did himself. Perhaps the other guy can try to throw the "hypocrite" response, but it doesn't change the fact he is indeed a convicted murderer.

Sure, it doesn't change the obvious (simple definiton: sb who stole sth = a thief) but it takes away the power from the statement "You're a thief!" It just doesn't sound so pejorative anymore. Inspired by your example, let me give you the one that has ocurred to me: a guy who steals therabites of movies is by no means a thief and a kid that repeatedly steals food because it's hungry is also (according to law) a thief. But are they "equal" thieves? Whose side are you on? Would you even dare to take sides in this situation?

quote: Bobby Henderson
I don't see anyone here fitting that description.

But you have to agree that you don't know everyone on this forum and the sentence just states your belief, not a fact (BTW, you can call me hypocrite [Wink]

for I suit your definition perfectly)

Step by step we're getting closer to fundamentals for instance, is law perfect? (are those who make it really doing that for our benefit?); what about the civil disobedience? (and before you cast an "A" word at me- i'm NO ANARCHIST-I do pay taxes [Big Grin]

)

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 04-14-2009 04:27 PM

quote: Janusz Antkiewicz
Inspired by your example, let me give you the one that has ocurred to me: a guy who steals therabites of movies is by no means a thief and a kid that repeatedly steals food because it's hungry is also (according to law) a thief. But are they "equal" thieves? Whose side are you on? Would you even dare to take sides in this situation?

Come on!

Obviously, anyone would agree that someone who steals $5 did a smaller act than someone who stole $5,000. But that doesn't change the fact that he still is a thief.

quote:
Step by step we're getting closer to fundamentals for instance, is law perfect? (are those who make it really doing that for our benefit?); what about the civil disobedience? (and before you cast an "A" word at me- i'm NO ANARCHIST-I do pay taxes [Big Grin] )

1) Comparing civil disobedience to an attempt to get a movie without paying for it is a true insult to people that actually participated in real civil disobedience.

2) No one here is arguing that our laws are perfect. Can you say "non sequitur"?

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Janusz Antkiewicz
Film Handler

Posts: 40
From: Wroclaw, Dolny Slask, Poland
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 04-14-2009 04:52 PM

quote: Chris Slycord
No one here is arguing that our laws are perfect

But still you (and I don't necessarily mean you Chris) choose to follow the laws that in some instances may be bad; you have a gut feeling it's bad and nevertheless choose to abide by it because "that's the law".

Can you think of something good coming out of downloading illegal movies/programmes? Is there any chance that in the long run it might even be profitable for the industry?

PS. What is a

quote: Chris Slycord
real civil disobedience

?
Doesn't a certain action become a true civil disobedience only after we know the overall outcome (and I don't mean a win/lose situation)?

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Chris Slycord
Film God

Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 04-14-2009 05:16 PM

quote: Janusz Antkiewicz
But still you (and I don't necessarily mean you Chris) choose to follow the laws that in some instances may be bad; you have a gut feeling it's bad and nevertheless choose to abide by it because "that's the law".

Again with the non sequiturs. Is this law bad because someone at some time acted out against a law that was actually bad?

And I'm saying that breaking this law doesn't constitute as real civil disobedience because it doesn't meet the definition of civil disobedience.

quote:
civil disobedience
n. Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.

Your downloading movies is NOT done in an effort to have the government change their laws on movie downloads.

Also, I have a problem with you using civil disobedience to describe your actions since to me you're comparing movie downloads to the civil rights movement. How many friends do you have that were lynched for downloading movies? I imagine none.

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