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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Author
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Topic: Patrons 'reel' mad about theater food searches
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Barry Floyd
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1079
From: Lebanon, Tennessee, USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-24-2010 03:53 PM
quote: Randy Stankey
You can not call the cops on people who did nothing wrong. Period.
That's why our "House Rules" and "Parking Guidelines" are clearly posted and handed to each vehicle in printed written form each time they come thru the gate. If a patron refuses to abide by our written house rules which were handed to them before they passed the boxoffice, if they are in blatant violation of them, disrespectful to or use profane language to either my staff or my other patrons , THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG and they will be asked to leave the property without a refund. If they refuse to leave, I do call the cops, and usually as soon as the police cruiser pulls in the driveway one of two things usually happens -
a.) their entire attitude changes (but they are still leaving - because I said so),
b.) they take off out of the parking lot before the cops can reach them.
Our police officers eagerly respond to the calls, and we don't put up with any BS from anybody. We don't run our theatre like the "Soup Nazi", but we do maintain a civil order about the place, while at the same time providing a safe place for families and friends to hang out and enjoy an evening. I like to think there is a reason why the local 10-plex is over-run by foul-mouthed texting teenagers and has to have 3 uniformed police officers on duty every Friday & Saturday night and we don't.
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 03-24-2010 07:04 PM
quote: Randy Stankey
You can not force invited customers to give up their rights just because they set foot on your property.
First of all, where does the term "invited" come into play here? Maybe I'm inviting people to be my patrons, but that doesn't confer or deny rights on either side, as far as I can tell. The implied invitation is persuant to my rules. So long as I'm not discriminating by not applying my policies evenly, I don't see the argument.
You're not taking away anyone's rights. You're setting conditions upon which they may be present on your private property.
You could invite someone to dinner at your house, then stop them at the door and ask to see the contents of their belongings because you don't want certain things in your home. Your guest could comply or turn around and walk off. Where's the lawsuit there?
I just don't see why you can't grasp this. When I attend a game at the Mariners' field, I see bags being checked. When I attend a Washington Huskies game, I see two sets of lines... one for people with bags & the other for those without. The University of Washington has a damned fine law school. Chances are, if those kind of searches were illegal, they wouldn't be doing them.
On a federal level, they're going to be doing full body scans on you at the airport. Refuse and they'll show you the door just as fast. I really doubt that the threat of a lawsuit will get you on the plane. On the other hand, you're free to avoid the search by driving your car... or walking... or whatever.
I think the whole point here is that you are not being forced to do anything. If you do not wish to be searched, you are free to leave and nobody will touch you... not even with a feather. Theres's no force or coersion going on here. Don't like my policies? Fine. Go somewhere else. If I had a search policy that nobody would put up with, the worst that would happen would be that I'd have an empty field.
I'd bet that if you detailed your questions to your law professor friend more in line with the debate at hand, you might get a somewhat different answer... either that, or there's a whole lot of us in Washington State that are dancing with danger... which I sort of doubt.
quote: Barry Floyd
I like to think there is a reason why the local 10-plex is over-run by foul-mouthed texting teenagers and has to have 3 uniformed police officers on duty every Friday & Saturday night and we don't.
Well said.
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 03-25-2010 12:07 AM
quote: Manny Montes
At my theater it is posted at the box office that we reserve the right to search packages, backpacks and similar items. However, if they would prefer that we do not search their belongings, we simply ask them to leave it at customer service or in the car. The reasoning being that we have found loaded handguns that are left in auditoriums, plus we have a big issue with the "middle school mafia" bringing in spray paint and other things to deface the theater.
Yah... that's pretty much how we handled that, too.
quote: Randy Stankey
You can not require a person who has not broken the law; who has not committed an infraction of the rules; who has not disturbed the peace to give up his rights just by virtue of setting foot on your company's property.
You can not search people who you don't have a damn good reason to believe have done something wrong or who you have a damn good reason to believe are in the process of doing something wrong. You can not create arbitrary rules and tell people that you will call the police if they don't obey.
OK, we've made some progress here.
Perhaps we're debating semantics. Actually, I don't disagree with what you've said, except maybe on the point of arbitrarily making rules. I actually can do that to some extent, because I have ultimate authority over who gets to stay or go. If I ask you to leave for any reason and you refuse, the police will escort you to the gate, period. Your recourse, if you feel strongly enough about it AND I had not refunded your money, would be to take me to court. You would have your say, I'd have mine and the judge would decide. With that in mind, I'd say most all of us would tend not to arbitrarily toss you for no good reason AND keep your money.
I'm not getting your take on the concept of inviting people. It seems to me that any commercial attraction invites patrons, yet we still have cases (noted elsewhere) where searches are commonly made before admission is granted. Personally, I tend to look at this more as making my business available for the public to choose. For the good of my business and my patrons I have a set of rules. Most of them are unpublished, but are pretty much common sense.
If I was to confront you for no seemingly good reason and demand to search your person, threatening the police if you didn't comply and somehow attemtpting to prevent you from leaving my place unless you submitted to the search, I'd say you'd be in a very good position to cause me serious grief, though I'm not sure what law you'd use. Frankly, if someone did that to me, I'd make that business my personal project.
Our use of law enforcement isn't quite as draconian as it might seem. If I catch you sneaking somebody in, I might call the cops. If I ask you to leave and you refuse, I'd probably call the cops. If you were causing a distraction that I was unable to resolve and I couldn't get you to calm down and/or leave, I'd probably call the cops. My personal policy is that if I do call the cops, your exit will be part of my intended result. I hope we have no disagreement there.
I don't do vehicle or bag searches here. However, if I did and you attempted to get in past my policies, I think a call to 911 would be appropriate. I get the impression your view on unreasonable searches goes way beyond what would likely happen at the typical theatre.
I don't think there's ever any harm in calling the cops, though I do so very rarely. The reason for that is I can't guarantee they'll see things my way. For that reason, I tend to call for situations we're both familiar with and which I have a generally good idea how they'll react. The police are bound by their own set of laws and rules, and they have to decide whether my problem falls within their scope of authority. I don't think you can sue me for merely calling 911, because the ultimate decision whether the police have an actionable cause is theirs, not mine. If you're really involved in something they can do something about, it is ultimately their decision to act accordingly. Their actions are also tempered by a general knowledge of what the local prosecutor is likely to take seriously. Amazing as it might seem, not all of them would prosecute the same offenses with equal vigor.
There are cases where civilian business owners can physically detain a person for things like shoplifting. However, I've never been involved in anything like that, so I'm unfamiliar with the applicable parameters.
I agree on the point that I can't just drag you out of your seat and search you by force, though I'd never do that and I don't think any of us were trying to justify on this thread.
If you're ever in Washington state, I cordially invite you to attend my business! Please don't put anyone in your trunk. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-25-2010 12:58 AM
If you put an ad in the newspaper, post a billboard, put up a sign or just unlock your doors in the morning you are inviting people to your business. When you invite people to your business they have the right to expect that a law abiding citizen who behaves in a reasonable manner will not have to give up his basic rights as a condition of entry.
As with anything there can be exceptions. If you give fair notice you might be able to require people to do certain things but, certainly, fine print on the back of a ticket or a sign in the box office window will not hold water. Furthermore, you will need to give this notice before the person pays money for a ticket. He has to be given a chance to refuse.
Let's say, for instance, you own a night club where rowdy people have been known to start fights. You have the right to enforce rules to keep the peace and, in fact, you have the duty to protect innocent people from getting hurt because you invited THEM to your establishment and they also have the right to be free from unreasonable harm while they are there. You can absolutely have a security policy where people might be searched for weapons and contraband but you need to have a consistent policy. Putting a bouncer at the door who rejects people who look drunk or who are too rowdy is a good idea.
If a car pulls into your drive in and you hear banging in the trunk you certainly have the right to question the person and reject them if they don't give a satisfactory answer. If you have reason to believe that they are sneaking people in you could very well have the right to search the trunk.
If somebody comes into your theater lobby carrying a backpack that makes a crinkling noise like a cellophane bag full of potato chips, you can question them, possibly search them and eject them if they don't comply with reasonable requests.
However, as much as I know that there are some circumstances when you are allowed to search, I still wouldn't do it unless I caught somebody red handed. Even then I'd think twice about it. My decision would be based on how bad the infraction is. If it's just a package of "M&M"s I would probably tell the person not do bring in outside candy again. If it was a six pack of beer and a full size bag of potato chips I'd probably call them on it.
I am not saying that a business owner doesn't have the right to enforce reasonable rules. It is the way those rules are enforced that matter.
As I thought about this problem, I had an idea. It's just a spitball idea. I wonder what you all think about it:
What if you had your attorney or legal adviser draft up a form letter that could be kept on file in the office. If you catch somebody sneaking in food or if you have good reason to think that they are sneaking in food you wait until the movie is over and people are leaving. Then you meet the person at the door, tell them that you know they brought in food then present them with a letter which says that they are banned from entering the premises for some period of time ( 90 days, 6 months or a year) or else they will be prosecuted for trespassing.
Do you think that would work? If you find empty potato chip bags or empty beer cans on the floor and you can reasonably pair that litter up with a person who is in your building (or who was there recently) you have a pretty airtight case against them. Don't you?
I think that would be preferable to randomly searching people.
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Thomas Pitt
Master Film Handler
Posts: 266
From: Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: May 2007
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posted 03-25-2010 03:41 AM
Cineworld in the UK has a strict no outside food/drink policy. They don't usually do bag searches, but on more than one occasion I have had to leave my bag (containing valuables such as my cellphone, wallet, house key) at the box office before being allowed in.
When people buy things like bottled drinks from the concessions stand, they put a large SOLD sticker on it so the staff know it was bought there and not from outside. Yes, the profit margins are too high - at Cineworld Bradford, a small bottle of soda costs £2.10 as opposed to £1.30 (maximum I've seen) in outside shops!
At VUE cinemas, I've occasionally had my bag searched, but they're mainly looking for cameras and other recording devices, not outside food. If the concession stand actually sold the kind of soda I like in small bottles (not just giant 'buckets' of Cola), I might buy some there. For the time being though, I'm going to continue taking outside drinks (not food) in until they put up large signs saying you can't.
I try to go to showings which will not clash with the time I have to eat lunch or whatever. On the occasions that's not possible, I try to pick a showing that will allow me to eat lunch during the adverts and trailers, and be finished by the time the movie starts ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jack Ondracek
Film God
Posts: 2348
From: Port Orchard, WA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 03-25-2010 01:03 PM
quote: Randy Stankey
tell them that you know they brought in food then present them with a letter which says that they are banned from entering the premises for some period of time ( 90 days, 6 months or a year) or else they will be prosecuted for trespassing.
Yes, you can do that. The cops call that "trespassing someone". We've had a couple of cases where we've asked someone not to come back. When they did, and would not leave, we called the cops. They escorted the patron to the gate and handed them a "trespass notice", basically formalizing the consequences they'd face if they returned.
I think we're just dancing around the fine points now, Randy. You're not saying anything I basically disagree with, though our thresholds for action are a bit different. The areas where it probably becomes unreasonable are not generally experienced at a movie theatre, at least to the point I've seen.
The observation about the nightclub is interesting, in that we're not talking about totally different issues, yet the nightclub scenario seems easier to accept.
One thing I will point out here, is that you never give up any rights when confronted by a theatre operator. While you may wind up being ejected from the premesis, either willingly or otherwise, you would never actually be searched, unless you allowed it (notwithstanding what a policeman could do in certain extremes). Following your ejection, you would have every right to seek whatever legel redress might be available to you. My opinion happens to be that you'd be wasting your time.
I've always thought that this explains why most large chains have such a hands-off, non confrontational approach to dealing with their patrons. We always risk going to court over something we might have done to piss off a customer. We might rarely lose, but on a scale the size that a company like Regal might face, actively avoiding these situations might work better for them. The problem is that patrons seem to have figured this out, and some of them work it for everything they can get. In a few theatres around here, complaining about the smallest detail will result in several passes coming out of the safe, rather than the manager actually dealing with the issue. That creates problems for independents like me, in that patrons can get a little worked up when they find those tactics don't work out here.
Given that, enforcing outside food bans at the indoor theatres will continue to be challenging, so long as the majority of theatres ignore their own rules. If they all get on track, I think the problem would quickly diminish.
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