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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Author
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Topic: Patrons 'reel' mad about theater food searches
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-25-2010 11:51 PM
Jim, you know that a terrorist isn't going to sneak chemical weapons into a theater in a knapsack. It's easy enough to conceal enough chemical weapons to kill a theater full of people in the pockets of your jacket. Searching for food and searching for terrorist weapons are two completely different things.
Shootings inside packed nightclubs full of people have happened. Nightclub owners know or should know that this kind of thing can happen and they should take reasonable steps to prevent it and they do. Everybody who goes into that nightclub has to get by a bouncer who throws out people who could cause trouble and, if he thinks somebody has a weapon or is too drunk he can search or question them. This is a consistent policy which does not pose an unreasonable breach of a person's rights. It is applied equally to all people who enter. They have notice of this policy and they are given this notice before they pay the cover charge. In fact, the bouncer usually collects the cover charge.
Airlines are under obvious threat. Everybody who boards an airline is subject to, at minimum, a metal detector scan and a baggage X-ray. There are strict policies as to when a potential passenger is subject to extra scrutiny and those rules are applied to all in a reasonably even fashion.
Many retail stores actually search everybody who exits using Sensormatic tags and security gates but this type of search is so inconsequential and so non-invasive that it is permitted. Further, the alarm should go off only when a non-deactivated tag passes through the gate. Thus, store security has more latitude to search somebody who has set off the alarm provided they have a consistent policy in place to handle these situations.
Where is the danger in sneaking in a bag of potato chips to a theater? National security isn't being threatened. People aren't being harmed. No crime has been committed. The theater is only out $10.00. That does not justify a search unless you have reason to believe that a rule has been broken or is about to be broken.
Where is the consistent policy? Does EVERYBODY get searched or does theater management "cherry pick." Do you search all the time you are open for business or just on some nights? How do you decide when and when not to search? How do you decide who to search? Are the rules applied uniformly to everybody?
Where is notice given? When is notice given? Does the customer have the chance to be informed before he buys a ticket? How are you informing them? Is it just some fine print on the back of their ticket?
Yes, telling people that they must submit to a search IS coercion if they already bought a ticket and they weren't informed beforehand.
How do you know who is breaking the rules and who is not? How do you avoid incriminating people who are not breaking the rules? What do you do when you search somebody but they come up clean? Do you apologize or give them a free pass? What do you do if you catch somebody? Do you call the cops? Do you eject them? Do you give them the opportunity to leave the contraband snacks outside?
I'm not saying that searching is never permissible. I'm saying that, when you do search, you open up a whole series of questions which, if not answered correctly, can get you into a serious mess. You had better have a consistent policy in place which will stand up to scrutiny and you had better have a plan to deal with people who are breaking the rules worked out in advance.
Any law abiding citizen has the right to go on public property or on any publicly accessible property and proceed normally, without breaking any laws and not be subject to having his rights violated unless there is a compelling reason.
If you go against that right you had better have all your "I's" dotted and all your "T's" crossed or else you could be getting yourself and your company into a lot of trouble. I say it's not worth it. I suggest you rethink that policy. I think it would be better to teach your ushers to look for people who have sneaked in with food and bring them to management attention so that they may be warned not to bring in food again or be faced with being banned and given a trespass order.
If somebody at a theater tries to search me I will tell them, "No." I will keep on walking. I will go to the appointed theater. I will sit in a seat. I will watch my movie and, when it ends, I will go home." If somebody hassles me, I will tell them to leave me alone or call the police. If they can't prove that I did anything wrong except disobey some trumped up charge of trespassing it will be THEY who are in trouble and not me!
I don't bring food into theaters, I don't commit crimes, I never hurt anybody, I behave in a reasonably polite manner and I expect that people in a theater will treat me with respect.
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Manny Montes
Master Film Handler
Posts: 270
From: United States
Registered: Feb 2010
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posted 03-25-2010 11:53 PM
The only thing I have to say about trespassing after the fact is that my old building could do 4000-5000 people on a weekend, I cannot plausibly discern in a packed 300 seat auditorium if someone snuck food in, and the proof isnt that great. If I catch them at the door with it in their bag, its undeniable. Plus as you said "they need the opportunity to reject", they have that, twice actually. The posting is at box office and is fairly large, that we search large bags, packages, backpacks, they could refuse to buy a ticket. Also when they go to door and the cast member tells them the policy they can say "i'm not ok with that, id like a refund" and I'd give it to them no questions asked.
Plus my cast members are instructed not to touch the bag, they simply do a quick visual inspection where the customer opens the bag.
Mainly it is for weapons and other stuff, outside food/drink is bad if caught, but I can turn a blind eye. What I can't turn a blind eye to is kids bringing in sharpies, spraypaint, guns, etc.
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 03-26-2010 06:13 PM
quote: Randy Stankey
Jim, you know that a terrorist isn't going to sneak chemical weapons into a theater in a knapsack.
Aren't they? In the 1990s there were several theatres attacked with crude incendiary devices made from chlorine pellets and brake fluid, which, in addition to starting fires, released dangerous amounts of chlorine gas into the air. The building I was working in was one of the ones hit.
quote: Randy Stankey
for food and searching for terrorist weapons are two completely different things.
Actually, when we check we are looking mostly for weapons, alcohol and video equipment. Though if we see a bag of doritos, you will be asked to take them to your car.
quote: Randy Stankey
Where is notice given? When is notice given? Does the customer have the chance to be informed before he buys a ticket? How are you informing them? Is it just some fine print on the back of their ticket?
In our case it's a 3' tall sign that says bags are subject to visual inspection. Irregardless however, we don't have to post signs if we don't want to. We are under no legal obligation to lat in large bags, we do so at our - and only our - discresion. If that's a problem, take the bag to your car or we will be glad to give you a refund.
quote: Randy Stankey
Yes, telling people that they must submit to a search IS coercion if they already bought a ticket and they weren't informed beforehand.
To borrow a movie quote, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." In a legal sense that is not coercion.
quote: Randy Stankey
What do you do when you search somebody but they come up clean?
Well, again, search implies we are making them "assume the position" for a pat down. All we ask is that they open their bag for visual inspection. Afterwards, assuming there is nothing we don't want it, we thank them and tell them them to enjoy the movie.
quote: Randy Stankey
do you do if you catch somebody? Do you call the cops? Do you eject them? Do you give them the opportunity to leave the contraband snacks outside?
Well that would depend on what it is, wouldn't it?
quote:
If somebody at a theater tries to search me I will tell them, "No." I will keep on walking. I will go to the appointed theater. I will sit in a seat. I will watch my movie and, when it ends, I will go home." If somebody hassles me, I will tell them to leave me alone or call the police. If they can't prove that I did anything wrong except disobey some trumped up charge of trespassing it will be THEY who are in trouble and not me!
Well Randy, try that somewhere and tell me how it works out for ya.
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-26-2010 11:26 PM
Of course, those home made incendiary devices were smuggled into the theater inside knapsacks or shopping bags. Right? They could have just as easily started those fires with a can of Zippo lighter fluid and a pack of matches stuffed into their pants. Couldn't they?
Wasn't there a union dispute in Rochester, NY where a bunch of guys brought air horns into the theater and set them off at random times? Did they bring them in bags too?
As per "Protective Security Law" (Inbau, Aspen & Spiotto) - Page 191:
quote:
A person commits intimidation when, with intent to cause another person to perform or omit the performance of any act, her communicated to another a threat to inflict physical harm, or to make a criminal accusation, or to expose a person to hatred, contempt, or ridicule, or to bring about or continue a strike or boycott, etc.
Yes, simply telling somebody that you might call the police or subject them to criminal accusation if they don't do what you want is intimidation or coercion. You do not have to use threat of physical force or violence.
You do not have to jack somebody up against the wall to search them. Telling them to open their bags is and attempt to make a search. If you go through an anti-shoplifting gate at Wal-Mart, you are being searched. If somebody merely walks up behind you and peeks into your shopping bag, you are searching them because you are trying to see something that is not ordinarily visible. Now, if something falls out of that shopping bag or becomes plainly visible that is not a search. Searching merely means to look into something that a person has reasonable cause to believe is private.
And, yes, I have told store security that they can't search me.
I was walking out of a Borders bookstore and some guy came up to me and told me to open my bag. I asked, "Do you think I stole something?" He said, "No." I said, "Goodbye." and walked out the door. He called to me, "Don't come back here again!" I kept on walking and didn't say anything and didn't look back.
The very next day, I went back and bought the book which I had been looking at the day before. (I didn't have enough money to buy it before.) I saw the same guy. I smiled and waved as I left. All he could do is stare at me.
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Chris Slycord
Film God
Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 03-27-2010 02:29 AM
quote: Randy Stankey
Okay, so standing there and saying "No" while ten other customers and two theater employees look on with contempt isn't coercive?
Didn't you read my post? I covered this already.
I said that if the staff member stares you down then that could easily be considered intimidation and coercive. But, that's a non-sequitur because you've been saying that merely requesting the search is coercive. Requesting a search isn't the same as requesting it, having the request denied, and responding in a coercive manner. From what I see, you're conflating those two scenarios.
Also, if you check your textbook description, it shows that a search is allowed when the visitor gives their explicit consent to the search. Now, doesn't it stand to reason that for one to obtain consent for a search they must ask for it? Again, requesting consent isn't the same as being forceful/intimidating when the request is denied.
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-27-2010 07:27 AM
Okay, you can search. I never said you can't ever search. But when you do search you have to be careful. Very careful In fact, you have to be so careful that I recommend you don't do it at all. However, if you're going to search you need to know:
1) Your customers are your invited guests.
2) Just by walking onto your property, you can not require your guests to give up their right to privacy.
3) If you search, you need to give fair notice and you must give it before the customer buys a ticket. Fine print on the back of the ticket is not good enough and a sign in the box office window MIGHT be good enough but it also might NOT be good enough. That is something I can't answer. You will have to check that out for yourself.
4) When you search, you need to have consistent policy in place. You can't just cherry pick. You must apply that policy fairly at all times when you search. You need to scrupulously avoid the appearance of discrimination. You need to be clear on what you are searching for.
5) You need to realize that, as an employee of the establishment, you ARE in a position of authority and you CAN coerce people into doing something that they wouldn't ordinarily do. Simply requesting a person to open their bag could be considered to be coercive.
6) If you find something you need to be clear on how to proceed. It would be a good idea to give the customer an "out." Let them have a chance to take the items out of the theater and return empty handed. You need to be clear when you are going to call police or building security. You need to be clear whether you are going to eject somebody and when.
7) You need to be prepared to defend yourself if or when somebody challenges you in court and you can't just say, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." Just one lawsuit can be disastrous to your bottom line EVEN IF YOU WIN THE CASE. You should probably consult with an expert to help you devise a policy and a defense in case of a problem.
I'm telling you this shit is tricky! It is so tricky that your average usher or assistant theater manager probably shouldn't try it unless he has been trained in how to do it. As you know, it's tricky enough to train a high school student to pop popcorn, let alone train them on civil liability.
I have had training in civil liability and I won't search people unless I have a damn good reason... Like I think they have a weapon that they might try to use against me.
Do you even realize that simply standing between a customer and the exit could be considered an arrest if there is a size disparity between you and the customer? If you give somebody who hasn't done anything to break the law the impression that they aren't free to leave the premises, that's an "arrest." If you don't understand that you could find yourself in JAIL! I am not joking!
If you still want to search people, go ahead. Be my guest. But don't say I didn't warn you!
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Jim Ziegler
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 753
From: West Hollywood, CA
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 03-27-2010 04:54 PM
quote: Randy Stankey
Of course, those home made incendiary devices were smuggled into the theater inside knapsacks or shopping bags. Right? They could have just as easily started those fires with a can of Zippo lighter fluid and a pack of matches stuffed into their pants. Couldn't they?
Given the amount of materials that were used on the attack in the building I was working it, it very well may have been smuggled in inside a bag. And a zippo or matches being used to set a trash can or seat on fire does not have the added effect of filling the theatre with chlorine gas.
quote: Randy Stankey
Yes, simply telling somebody that you might call the police or subject them to criminal accusation if they don't do what you want is intimidation or coercion.
Really? So when I ask a person to leave, and they refuse, thereby committing the crime of tresspassing, I am intimidating them when I summon law enforcement?
quote: Randy Stankey
If a person has done nothing wrong you can not search them without a compelling reason and you can not coerce them to give up their rights simply by the fact that they set foot on your property.
You have no right to bring a large bag into my building. Period. If you would like me to allow you to do so, I have to visually verify that there is not something inside of said bag that I do not want in my building. If those terms are unacceptable to you, you may not bring said bag into my building. My checking you bag does not violate your rights in any way, because it is a consentual check. If you do not consent, I don't inspect the bag and you can return it to your car. There is no privacy issue here.
Further, this is a far different scenario to an employee demanding to see your bag when you are exiting, or chasing someone down the parking lot and demanding to see what's in their suitcase.
quote: Randy Stankey
Simply requesting a person to open their bag could be considered to be coercive.
Um, no... Pulling a weapon and demanding they open it would be coercive. Saying, "we cannot allow in large bags without visualing inspecting the contents, can you show us what's inside or return the bag to your vehicle please?" is not, in any way, shape, or form coercive. Any lawyer who tries to argue it is will find himself laughed out of court.
quote: Randy Stankey
If you find something you need to be clear on how to proceed. It would be a good idea to give the customer an "out."
The out is returning the item to their car. I doubt you will find any theatre that insists on searching a bag even if the customer wants to take it out of the building.
quote: Randy Stankey
I have had training in civil liability and I won't search people unless I have a damn good reason...
I have a BS in Criminal Justice... 4th Amendment issues were pounded into my head in just about every course.
quote: Randy Stankey
We had to read a lot of briefs on cases involving civil liability and there was a lot of way out shit that happened in them. Like a said, a guard locked a lady in a closet. Another time a guard almost strangled a man when he reached out and grabbed at him but only got his hands around his scarf. There was a case where a six foot tall guard ran up to an old lady and shouted "Stop!" then stood between her and the door. That was the guard who got sued for false arrest because the size disparity between the two of them made her feel like she was not free to leave.
Gotta love private security...
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