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Topic: Meet the Lone Loser in MoviePass Hitting 1 Million Members

Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 01-16-2018 01:12 AM

Taking a picture as proof of your purchase could indeed be used as a means for MoviePass to reduce fraud. Even if it's not automatically scanned, it could be used as evidence in cases where fraud or abuse is suspected. Then again, why should we come up with ideas for their problems? [Razz]

quote: Frank Cox
Taking a picture of their ticket wouldn't be of much value in a theatre like mine -- All of my tickets just say ADMIT ONE.

Or is my theatre the last one in the world to use simple roll tickets?

If you don't sell tickets for certain shows in advance and running just a single screen, then I guess generic "Admit One" tickets are both retro and sufficient. [Wink]

I've not seen them in quite a while, even the single screens I've visited in the past years had some kind of ticketing in place that printed out tickets that stated the name, date and time of the show.

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David Buckley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 525
From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 01-16-2018 04:04 PM

quote: Jack Ondracek
Some time ago, we worried about the possibility a customer could purchase tickets with his card, then come back pre-show and ask for a cash refund, then contest the credit card purchase.

I know we're in different countries, but where I live, the credit card companies require that all card refunds go back to the card. I believe it is because if you buy goods on a credit card and then refund the goods for cash, you're effectively getting a cash advance from the credit card company; they are very happy to give cash out, but cash advances on cards don't have an interest free period, hence the contractual grumpiness. Quite apart from the chargeback risk to the merchant you've identified.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-17-2018 12:11 AM

quote: Marcel Birgelen
I've not seen them in quite a while, even the single screens I've visited in the past years had some kind of ticketing in place that printed out tickets that stated the name, date and time of the show.

We used roll tickets for a long time, then around the end of the '80s I wrote a "BASIC" program that kept track of the ticket numbers but didn't print actual tickets. Then I found out that we were "required" to keep the printed tickets on hand, so we switched over to RTS sometime in the late '90s. In 87 years we've never had a studio audit that I know of, but we still keep boxfuls of old tickets going back two or three years.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-18-2018 03:23 PM

If one really wants to know how MP works, go on their website and read the "300 page" manual on the do's and dont's of this service.

Basically, the cardholder is using someone elses money and it all has to be in correct order. Otherwise, a fine or termination will result.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 01-18-2018 05:44 PM

quote: David Buckley
I know we're in different countries, but where I live, the credit card companies require that all card refunds go back to the card. I believe it is because if you buy goods on a credit card and then refund the goods for cash, you're effectively getting a cash advance from the credit card company; they are very happy to give cash out, but cash advances on cards don't have an interest free period, hence the contractual grumpiness. Quite apart from the chargeback risk to the merchant you've identified.

The contract we have with our processor doesn't explicitly require this, but they do advice to do all refunds via a charge-back of the actual transaction, because else you're incurring the risk of a "double-refund" if the customer asks for a charge-back of said transaction.

Now, if you're doing tons of small transactions, it's often hard to find just the appropriate credit card transaction, especially if this process isn't automated in your PoS system. That's most likely why cash refunds are pretty common, at least around here, but I've also gotten cash refunds on C.C. transactions in the U.S.

quote: Mike Blakesley
We used roll tickets for a long time, then around the end of the '80s I wrote a "BASIC" program that kept track of the ticket numbers but didn't print actual tickets. Then I found out that we were "required" to keep the printed tickets on hand, so we switched over to RTS sometime in the late '90s. In 87 years we've never had a studio audit that I know of, but we still keep boxfuls of old tickets going back two or three years.

BASIC, those were the years. [Wink]

Well, it's interesting, the contracts I've dealt with, never actually stated that you need to keep a copy of the ticket, just a watertight administration of the admissions (not even actual tickets) you sold. Obviously, they don't really like if you roll your own software to so. [Wink]

The only audits that I've seen is just sending them some tabulations/reports regarding your ticket sales in a certain period and some proof from your accountant to back those numbers up. I guess they will only start nitpicking if those numbers don't seem to add up.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
If one really wants to know how MP works, go on their website and read the "300 page" manual on the do's and dont's of this service.

Basically, the cardholder is using someone elses money and it all has to be in correct order. Otherwise, a fine or termination will result.

I didn't do a deep search of their site, but then, there isn't all that much on there. If you sign-up for one of their passes, the only terms of service they provide are those I've already linked. They're by no means 300 pages and I've outlined the potential problem with them.

MoviePass can't refer to a hidden "300 page" manual, if they fail to provide information on where to find it and therefore I've never even had the possibility to read it.

So, where is this "300 page" manual? I'd really like to, at least, take a look at it.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-18-2018 10:11 PM

My guess is he was exaggerating about the 300 pages.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-24-2018 01:25 PM

Yes, I'm exaggerating on the page count, but it's still a lengthy rules section.

UPDATE: The first fraud case popped up with MP at a Regal Cinema:

Heard buzz that 10 kids with MP cards bought tix for an evening performance during the day. Hour before they show was to begin, those 10 kids went back to the location and asked for refunds in CASH, in which they did receive. Those evening tix were over twelve bucks apiece.

Now, you think of it: you get someone that does that three times a week and get away with it, in that one month that one person can make some serious pocket money - by stealing from both the location and MP themselves.

Recommending that locations program their registers with a key designated for MP so the tix can be flagged and labeled "no cash refunds."

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-24-2018 02:21 PM

No "cash" refunds? How about no refund period. You sold the ticket to Movie Pass. Let Movie Pass refund them. Oh wait, they paid a flat rate for UP TO one movie a day. There is nothing to refund there either.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-24-2018 03:37 PM

^ True. Someone went into the negative on this one.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-24-2018 04:28 PM

So, who lost out--the theatre or Movie Pass?

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Andrew Thomas
Master Film Handler

Posts: 273
From: Pearland, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2012

posted 01-24-2018 05:01 PM

quote: Scott Norwood
So, who lost out--the theatre or Movie Pass?

The theater lost whatever the credit card transaction fee was since they didn't refund to the card. MP didn't lose anything beyond what they normally do when somebody buys a ticket with the service.

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-24-2018 05:48 PM

Seems to me, if anybody should get a refund, it should be MoviePass, because they're the ones who are out the 12 bucks for the unused ticket, not the customer.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-24-2018 05:53 PM

^ in which that is what the MP cardholder should do if a refund is needed - to have the cinema refund the charge back on the MP card, then the cardholder takes a snap of the refund slip to send it to MP to get the credit.

That way MP knows their money is back on their card.

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Travis Cape
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 01-24-2018 07:07 PM

I'm surprised that Regal would give a cash refund on a CC purchase in general.

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 01-25-2018 10:04 AM

Are these things actual credit cards (or Visa Debit or equivalents)?

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