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Topic: Are you a smoker?
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Monte L Fullmer
Film God
Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted 03-03-2010 02:25 AM
I never did and didn't want to - after seeing my grandfather hack up blood for the last two years of his life (and he died at an early age of 67 in the mid 60's where my father (his son) is still very healthy at 84 from living a clean life..) from the ravages of emphysemia due to his nicotine habit, I asked myself that question, "Is having this habit really worth it? If I'm gonna die, I'd rather go knowing that I took care of myself than dying in misery like that."
Also, had an uncle who, after 40 yrs of 4 packs a day, finally quit, but it was too late and had a lung removed and survived another 15 years on one lung. He asked for a picture of the bad lung - coal tar black it was..
..gee, not a pretty picture at all no matter how you look at it.
-Monte
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-03-2010 01:01 PM
One of the main purposes of smoking bans in bars, restaurants and other businesses is protecting the health of people who work there as well as customers who don't smoke. Not everyone gets to hand pick where he or she wants to work. It's pretty unheathly for an employee to be exposed to second hand smoke for his or her entire shift.
I strongly doubt smokers by and large will permanently stay away from businesses like bars, restaurants or casinos if they are unable to smoke in those establishments. What are they going to do otherwise? Stay home 100% of the time just so they can smoke?
With the costs of liability insurance, worker's comp insurance and health insurance continuing to rise significantly, pressure will increase on businesses to cut risks to reduce cost. That means making work places safer with things like smoking bans. Some companies are refusing to hire smokers because of what it can cost them on their health insurance policies. Obesity may become another target.
quote: Chris Slycord
If you legalize drugs then automatically the illegal drug trade has stopped because there's no such thing anymore.
The illegal drug trade will be eliminated only if controls for all drugs are removed, including prescription drugs. If anyone stands in the way of a drug's availability, such as a doctor and his prescription, the criminal street trade for the drugs will persist. Here in Lawton last week, Dishman's Pharmacy was robbed at gunpoint. The criminal didn't demand cash; he wanted Oxycontin and made off with a big jar of it.
quote: Chris Slycord
Yes there's no guarantee that the street crime would stop. But we have examples of countries lifting bans on drugs and focusing all their efforts on treatment and prevention rather than banning. And they had a precipitous drop in that same crime.
Which countries have lifted bans or controls on all drugs? In what developed nations is it legal to buy hard drugs like heroin or cocaine?
Many people think Holland has legalized drugs, but that's not accurate. Holland's laws tolerate cannibis use in certain shops but they still have strict laws against growing it and possessing it. Although a number of European countries do put a greater emphasis on treating and rehabilitating drug users those countries still have tough laws against the trafficking of hard drugs.
Differences in crime rate between nations may have much more to do with broad differences in culture and demographics rather than whether certain drugs are legal or not.
quote: Chris Slycord
There's also the notion that people are often attracted to things they are not supposed to have. For instance, recent surveys indicate that 35-40% of high school seniors in the US have smoked pot at some time in their life (and the real number likely slightly higher since some people still assume surveyors are gonna report them) whereas in Amsterdam only 15-18% said the same thing.
Such surveys are not scientific. Another problem is you're talking about marijuana, a drug that AFAIK has not been proven to be addictive. A pot smoker has more freedom of choice to abandon that pot smoking activity at will since there is no physical addiction involved. The same is not true for most other legal and illegal drugs. Most proponents of drug legalization pay very little lip service to the soul crushing, imprisoning effects of drug addiction.
That gets to the bigger issue: far more people die from substance abuse than street crime associated with the illegal drug trade. Look for that death toll to climb sharply higher if the controls on prescription drugs were removed and hard drugs like heroin and crack cocaine were ever legalized.
We have a bad enough time with socially acceptable legal drugs. Look at alcohol for example. The CDC says the United States had 13,050 alcoholic liver disease related deaths in 2006. That same year, the US had 22,073 alcohol induced deaths -that figure excludes accidents and homicides. On a personal note, my next door neighbor Susan died last August from liver failure related to alcoholism. She was only 42 years old. Her death and none of those other deaths make any big headlines like a drug dealer related shooting.
Cigarette smoking creates a yearly death toll that numbers in the hundreds of thousands in the United States alone.
Instead of making more drugs legal, I think our nation (and many others) need to be working harder to convince people not to be so stupid with substance abuse in the first place.
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Chris Slycord
Film God
Posts: 2986
From: 청주시, 경북도, South Korea
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 03-03-2010 01:24 PM
quote: Bobby Henderson
Which countries have lifted bans or controls on all drugs? In what developed nations is it legal to buy hard drugs like heroin or cocaine?
Well, my pharmacology teacher had mentioned that Portugal lifted bans on hard drugs and funneled all their money into treatment rather than bans. And the country hasn't gone to hell in a hand basket.
quote: Bobby Henderson
That gets to the bigger issue: far more people die from substance abuse than street crime associated with the illegal drug trade. Look for that death toll to climb sharply higher if the controls on prescription drugs were removed and hard drugs like heroin and crack cocaine were ever legalized.
Now you can tell the future? Just because something is available to the public doesn't mean that people will use it and all kill themselves. You predict that more people will die whereas I predict that less people will use and therefore less people will die. And with your previous statement of just giving lip service to the problem of addiction... did you miss the fact that I think we should spend the money we waste on the drug war and use it on treatment? Oh and btw, the more money we've spent on keeping drugs out, the more drugs have made their way in.
quote: Bobby Henderson
Instead of making more drugs legal, I think our nation (and many others) need to be working harder to convince people not to be so stupid with substance abuse in the first place.
Finally, you say something I can agree with. I'm all for giving people more education.
quote: Mike Blakesley
That would never work for bars/casinos, though. Studies say that a majority of people who gamble also smoke. And a lot of people smoke when they drink. So, if Casino A allowed smoking, a majority the patrons from the non-smoking places would flock there. Hence, all the casinos and bars would allow smoking, given the choice.
1) Even if it was true that bars were extremely likely to allow smoking due to their clientele, why is it wrong for a business to cater to their clientele?
2) It is patently false that no bars would decide to disallow smoking if given the choice. Before Washington State issued the state-wide ban, there already were several bars that were smoke-free. Some businesses make money by catering to a smaller, but loyal clientele.
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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008
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posted 03-03-2010 01:51 PM
Not a smoker here. Of anything. Ever.
For the longest time, since my youth, Spain had total alcohol access to minors and consumption of ANY drug was de-penalized (i.e. you could USE drugs, just not sell them or buy them, for that matter).
The laws have changed with times, whether at times it was "more or less illegal than before" each time a new "reglament" was passed.
The laws keep changing and it's become confusing, but I think the way it stands now is that alcohol can not be sold to under 18's except in supermarkets or restaurants (i.e. not in bars) and before 10pm (they had problems with people buying alcohol for impromtu parties at night and bothering neighbours around stores).
Of course, all McDonalds and Burger Kings or alike sell beer or wine. Supermarkets carry all types of alcoholic drinks right next to the sodas.
And a friend's son was recently stopped by the police while carrying a significant amount of hachis (about 5 doses he had just bought to share with friends, he's 15yo) and I helped with his defense, so I know for sure the law right now allows for the possesion of drugs under a certain amount but NOT its transportation (and thus, not in public) or sale.
As I said, the current law is confusing, but if you are cought with drugs in public, two things can happen: if it is under a certain amount, and you don't claim otherwise, they assume it's for personal consumption and you just get a (small) fine of under €300 (but up to €6000 if the amount is large-ish and you have been caught for a 3rd time), similar to a parking ticket (i.e. no criminal offense). We ended up having to pay only a €150 fine in his case.
If the amount of drugs you are caught with is over a certain point or you admit to be selling it to others, then it's a criminal offense (up to 2 years in prison for first time offenders, depending on amount etc).
But you are FREE to use or have small amounts all you want, just not in public, as while "outside", you are considered to be "transporting" it (that includes your car).
You can grow up to 2 marihuana plants in your house. The selling of seeds is 100% legal and there are plenty of shops around to purchase them freely. Not sure about cocaine. I guess the same limits applies (seeds=ok, plants=2-per-house-limit).
The reasoning and what they are trying to legislate (more or less successfully), is that you can take whatever you want, as it's your body, but you can't try to influence others to do the same, thus you can't sell the stuff or have too much around to give away. Keep it to yourself and you are fine. But don't take it in public or give it or sell it or grow larger amounts that you need for yourself.
In the past, laws were even more permissive. Let me assure you that most youth in Spain didn't even give a second glance to drugs or alcohol as it was so easily accesible. I've gotten (really) drunk only twice in my lifetime during my youth, but drank moderately plenty on pubs and discos from age 16 to 20 or so. Drinking or taking drugs was always a non-event and thus you weren't "cool" because you did it. Just normal or stupid.
Lately, it has become a bit worse, with a larger % of youth overusing alcohol or drugs, but still not "alarming". My daughter drank alcohol freely (but very moderately) since she was 14 in pubs and discos around the area with my full knowledge and permission (law allowed 16-and-over, but it wasn't enforced back then). If you think that 15yo's in the USA don't drink because it's forbidden, I have news for you.
The first time I went to the USA as a HS student I clearly remember a conversation among the seniors. A guy said something like: "Wow, yesterday we had a full 6-pack of beer". And I recall thinking: "This sounds good, I want to hear the rest of the story". Well, that was it. That was the whole story. The big deal is that a bunch of them kids had gotten hold of a 6-pack and drunk it all. I couldn't understand what was going on. I could walk into any supermarket and buy as much beer, vodzka, wishkey or anything I wanted at any time, day and night, during all my childhood and nobody would've given a damm.
So I do think it works to an extend the theory that, once something isn't "cool" or "forbidden" and your parents teach you to use it either moderately or, preferably, not at all, like (most) adults do, it works 95% of the time.
Now you are ALWAYS going to find kids "addicted" to alcohol or drugs, but I'll bet there are fewer of those in Spain, where it's (quite) legal and easy than in the USA, where it's VERY illegal, specially under age 21 (for alcohol).
On the other side, driving is not allowed in Spain until age 18, so that takes care of drinking and driving by minors. If you drive, you are not a minor ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Smoking was recently banned in most public places. They are allowed to have a separated area for smokers. Not sure how the law is now, but I think some bars were allowed to have smokers if they had tables outside or something. Again, the laws keep changing and it's confusing. But I know in most places for the past 5 years or so, smoking is prohibited unless properly handled (indicated by signs and separated from other areas).
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