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Topic: The Master (2012) 70mm prints?

Daniel Schulz
Master Film Handler

Posts: 387
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-26-2012 02:06 PM

Kicking this to tech support here at Datasat - definitely the sound levels should be even from reel to reel, and a failing timecode reader would manifest as audio dropouts, not reduced level.

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Jock Blakley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 218
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 09-26-2012 05:37 PM

quote: Tom Mundell
Maybe the DTS reader was failing on one projector or DTS was not the format being used?

As much as that would be a reasonable troubleshooting assumption, remember that with DTS 70 there's no analogue back-up. If you're hearing sound on a DTS 70 print, you're hearing DTS.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 09-26-2012 09:25 PM

quote: Tom Mundell
I saw The Master this past weekend in 70mm at the AFI Silver theater. While the picture was excellent, there was an oddity with the sound: every even numbered reel was much lower in volume compared to the odd numbered ones (ie. reel 1 sounded fine, but reel 2 was very soft and so on).

quote: Sam D. Chavez
Some of the "Master" installations use a dual player system, one as back up to the other. If the B chain settings of each player are not identical this would explain it.

Having setup and ran many dts70 prints, Daniel and Jock's post above are definitely correct. If you have sound, you ARE hearing dts audio. Likewise a failing reader would mean a dropout to NO sound.

Now in Sam's example above (the preferred method) there are 2 readers on top of the projector (4 readers total for a changeover setup). Each reader goes to its own player, but as changeover dts systems use a "Y" cable, one of the two players should be able to be completely powered off and the show would run just fine...meaning not just play the odd or even numbered reels.

The only way to create such an issue would be if the AFI didn't have 4 readers total and didn't use the "Y" cables (which I find hard to believe). It would also mean that one of the two players had their output gains out of alignment from the other (Sam's theory).

It definitely sounds like a mastering issue...but I also have a hard time believing that got past the QC. It is even hard to believe that since the 35mm prints use the exact same dts discs.

Oh well. We can all just blame Guttag. [Razz]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 09-26-2012 10:20 PM

I think you are overlooking the obvious (particularly Sam) if you know they have a CP200 sound processor...somebody bumped the volume knob on the CAT204 remote for one of the machines and the operator didn't notice it.

As to the set up...the 70mm projectors share the same DTS XD10 processor.

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-26-2012 10:26 PM

"My" local install was one projector with AW3 platter and one reader, two DTS 6D players.

Steve may be assuming there are two projectors and two Cat. No. 204 remotes; one with each projector.

Totally plausible explanation if there are two remotes.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 09-26-2012 11:16 PM

I have no doubt that Steve is correct here, but there is another possibility that could create thie issue:

Two projectors, two readers on each. Reader "A" on each machine drives DTS processor "1" and reader "B" drives DTS processor "2." If reader "B" on projector "1" is bad and reader "A" on projector 2 is also bad (or vice-versa), and the B-chain alignment differs between the DTS processors, the same problem could result. Yes, this is a weird, freakish possiblity, but it could hapen.

How does the DTS failover logic work? Does it always prefer one DTS processor and use that signal if it is good, or does it always use the "current" processor and only switch to the other one if the output fails? In other words, suppose there are two readers and two processors; if reader "A" on projector 1 is good and reader "A" on projector 2 is bad, will the DTS output switch at every changeover, or will it only change after the first changeover and stay with processor "2" for the rest of the show?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 09-26-2012 11:43 PM

Steve, are you saying the AFI doesn't have redundancy in their dts70 shows???

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Jock Blakley
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 218
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 09-27-2012 02:51 AM

In other news, I've just got word that the film's Australian distributor has had enough of our nagging them and finally confirmed us for a week-long season of THE MASTER in 70mm, starting December 16.

As far as I know, this will be the first new film to receive a 70mm release (of any scale) in Australia since TITANIC.

I suppose we'd better dust off the DTS kit [Razz]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 09-27-2012 04:42 AM

I only picked on Sam because the CP200 and CAT204s are definitely in his era of Dolby employment.

The AFI/Silver has CAT204s at each film machine in Theatre #1

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/picview.php?id=4769&category=1

As to DTS redundancy...there are two XD10 units...one is normally for 1/2 and the other for 3/4 and there is a spare reader on-site for both 35mm and 70mm. There is NOT a failsafe board but the cables were made in the rack for quick moving between the two DTS units and the DB9s on the readers are on thumbscrews for quick change out.

Having multiple CAT204s are a blessing and a nuisance. They are blessing because you can preset levels between Non-Sync, previews and feature. Nuisance due to the example brought up in this thread. At the Uptown, I always locked out the faders on the CAT204s for premieres just because of the ease of that knob getting knocked (happened to me once in 1982). This also ensures that there is ONE fader that once the studio is happy with the sound...it stays there. I've also noticed that "7" varies with each CAT204 and will often have to rotate the pots to get them all to agree on what "7" is.

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-27-2012 10:21 AM

No offense taken. It's a rare treat these days to joust with Steve.

Agree totally on the 204 calibration issue.

The XD10 does not absolutely require the redundancy of the second unit for 70mm but the earlier DTS 6D definitely does.

The reason, for those not familiar with the issue, is the earlier units play back the sound directly off the CD ROM. On the XD10 the audio is "ingested" onto the the internal hard drive and played back from there.

The issue of reversion does not exist in 35mm due to the analog audio soundtrack.

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Edward Havens
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 614
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Mar 2008

posted 09-27-2012 01:31 PM

Shame the Beverly Center isn't still around. Both upstairs projectors were 70mm capable, but they still had magheads and, in the case of House 1, what I believe was DTS 6D Unit #1.

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Bill Gabel
Film God

Posts: 3873
From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-27-2012 03:43 PM

quote: Edward Havens
Shame the Beverly Center isn't still around.

The way Bobby kept that place up. Those Ballantyne Pro 35-70 projectors were jokes in that booth.

The 70MM was far better across the street at the GCC Beverly Connection Cinemas.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 09-27-2012 04:10 PM

quote: Sam D. Chavez
The XD10 does not absolutely require the redundancy of the second unit for 70mm but the earlier DTS 6D definitely does.

The reason, for those not familiar with the issue, is the earlier units play back the sound directly off the CD ROM. On the XD10 the audio is "ingested" onto the the internal hard drive and played back from there.

My turn to play Guttag, Sam. You would be correct about how the different dts units produce their sound, but you would be incorrect that just because the XD10 plays from a hard drive that it doesn't need a backup. I've had more failures from XD10s than dts6-Ds.

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Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-27-2012 05:54 PM

The question Then is why the XD10 has more dropouts than the DTS 6D.

I have not played much with DTS over the years due to my focus during my Dolby years at beating the stuffing out of them with SR.D.

Ultimately the popularity of DTS declined for a number of reasons, all well known.

For whatever reason the director of "Master" decreed either playback with one XD10 or 2 6D's, even to providing the XD10 to those screens. Perhaps he was misinformed.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 09-28-2012 02:33 AM

Most of the XD10 issues are at boot-up. The big one is "oops, I've dumped everything right down to the operating system!"

That being said, with the age of the dts6-d units (and the dts6 players), the odds are was that the director feared the CD drives would be a problem. Well, most XD10s are more than 3 years old and 3 years is the typical reliable lifespan of a hard drive too.

Personally, I would never run dts70 without a failsafe machine. When I ran Titanic at the GCC Northpark, I setup 3 machines in the rack just to make DAMN sure. Then again that was a 1200 seat auditorium that frequently sold out. In my screening room I only run with one backup. [Wink]

So to test your SRD knowledge, can you tell me why different DA20s, CP500s and CP650s track with different error rates with the same print on the same projector through the same reader?

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