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Author Topic: do you prefer DTS or Dolby ?
Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 02-25-2002 10:39 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been hounding DTS to make a networked multiplex sound server for years. I even sent Terry Beard some illustrations on how the server might look (me being the graphic artist type and all). Haven't I talked about this item here in the past as well?

There would be an obvious economic benefit to having one central server playing back the audio data for all screens at one. With it just being one computer, that particular server could be beefed up with all the goodies needed for robust fault tolerant operation. Multiple processors, perhaps a UNIX based OS, RAID disc arrays, lots of RAM etc could be included in one unit that plays sound to anywhere from 8 to as many as 24 or more screens. That might sound like a bit much, but you have to consider a good Mac-based Avid video editing setup crunches a lot more data than that. So I don't think it is a big hardship for it to be made into a reality.

As to how data should be transferred to theaters, its all a judgment call. Lots of people talk about satellite delivery. However, that bandwidth costs a lot of money. DSL, Cable and even Broadband are too slow at this time. Discs, be they CD-ROM, DVD-ROM, removable hard discs, etc., may be the best option for the time being.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 02-25-2002 11:31 PM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think you'll find that satellite bandwidth is priced pretty competitively; cf. things like Internet-over-satellite for residential use.

A central server? Eww. "Single point of failure." It seems like a really bad idea. What's the benefit? Avoiding having multiple distributed individual DTS players? That doesn't seem like a useful thing to eliminate. Is the goal to be able to reduce the instances of media? If so, then:
a) I don't think it's a good idea to encourage prints to ship without media.
b) You can acheive that by building a LAN between the individual
DTS players.

It seems to me this is in the cart-before-the-horse department. What do you hope to gain?

--jhawk


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-25-2002 11:52 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Its definately competitive but here in Salt Lake City the only provider to offer it is all full up. We are moving into new quarters as of this Friday and we'll be stuck back on modems for a couple of weeks. Fortunately Sprint offers some sort of new type of service over a standard phone line that has wider bandwidth than a T-1. The T-1 is our only other option but the Sprint hookup is only 150.00 a month so we're giving it a try.
Mark @ New GTS

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-26-2002 12:05 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, do tell about the Sprint thing. Got a link, or should I ask John?

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Steven Gorsky
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 146
From: Frederick, MD, USA
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 02-26-2002 12:42 AM      Profile for Steven Gorsky   Author's Homepage   Email Steven Gorsky   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sounds like a higher speed DSL connection to me - 8Mbps down/512Kbps up. See Sprints page here.

Steven Gorsky


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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-26-2002 01:07 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
That's originally what I thought Steven, but then I read where he says "over a standard phone line" and started to wonder if it was something new I haven't heard of before. I'll have to wait and see what Mark says.

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Ron Lacheur
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 650
From: British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 02-26-2002 02:50 AM      Profile for Ron Lacheur   Email Ron Lacheur   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
" over a standard phone line " is ADSL.

T1 requires a fiber optic cable.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-26-2002 03:18 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
...but "some sort of new type of service over a standard phone line that has wider bandwidth than a T-1"???

Joe has a super deal with a fiber connection, but I think he only pays around $45/month and that's obviously not something that comes over the phone line. I'm stumped. Maybe Mark just worded it wrong and it's DSL.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 02-26-2002 04:00 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes I can get in excess up 3 megaBYTES full duplex from a great server on a good day. But they hide me behind a few IPs even though I am on a static. Hosting FTPs and a web server would probably get me in trouble if the traffic was too high. My ISP has pretty strict rules about that, but I could probably figure out a way to set up and FTP for a couple of users. I just couldn't host Film-Tech on this line for long before they'd notice something was up

Personally I don't think 512K up would be good enough for a web server. T1 has well more than twice that amount.

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Ray Derrick
Master Film Handler

Posts: 310
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001


 - posted 02-26-2002 04:31 AM      Profile for Ray Derrick   Email Ray Derrick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To get back to the subject of the original post, we did some serious comparison tests about four years ago between Dolby Digital and DTS. We chose a cinema location which had both DA20 and DTS players through a Panastereo processor in the same auditorium and we were able to A-B switch between the two systems (and also SR) by sitting the auditorium using Pana remote control units.

All three systems sounded very simlar whilst only the centre channel had information, although Dolby digital did seem to lack some fine detail - things like an explosion would lack the little "tinkels" fading off into nothing, that both DTS and SR reproduced quite clearly.

But the real differences came when all channels started to fire at once. The DD seemed to become quite "brittle" at times which neither DTS nor SR suffered from. We also noticed an occasional strange effect on some dialogue with DD, a kind of "furiness" which made it a little hard to understand. We tried switching off some channels and just listening to say the left and right without centre. Or just the surrounds. Here you could hear big differences between DD and DTS. With heavy dialogue over effects or music there was a kind of inverse modulation effect going on, not so much in amplitude but more in the frequency spectrum. However DTS sounded normal and unaffected. I remember Bill Mead (ex-Dolby and now ex-SDDS) once described this effect to me as a "shadow of one channel in another", something he put down to Dolby's bit sharing and something that he claimed SDDS does not suffer from, (even though SDDS also uses a licenced Dolby compression scheme, but with no bit sharing arrangement).

We ran a reel (from I forget what film) in which there is a brief scene in a heavy thunder/rain storm with dialogue mixed over the heavy rain and you could really hear the rain in the left, right and surrounds being "modulated" by the dialog in the missing centre channel. But turn on all channels back on and this effect would be masked to a certain extent by the more dominant sound in the centre channel, which is why DD works so well most of the time.

IMHO the primary consideration in terms of sound quality is that the APTX compression system used by DTS is just like computer compression - what goes in is what comes out, with almost zero data loss. Whereas the AC3 system used for Dolby Digital is a very lossy system which literally discards large chunks of audio when it thinks you are not paying attention. My company does not support one cinema digital system over any other (we don't make or sell digital cinema processors so I have no reason to be biased) but from what my ears tell me, I'll take the lossless system any day!

------------------
Ray Derrick
President/Chief Engineer
Panalogic Corporation Sydney, Australia
Phone: 61 (0)2 9894 6655 Fax: 61 (0)2 9894 6935

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-26-2002 06:07 AM      Profile for Scott Norwood   Author's Homepage   Email Scott Norwood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quick comment on the bandwidth issue: T1 lines are copper, not fiber.

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000


 - posted 02-26-2002 08:43 AM      Profile for Steve Kraus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Generally, but the term T-1 has come to mean both a service as well as a physical implementation of that service. T-1 was originally an AT&T Bell System term for a 1.544 mbps line carried over a copper wire pair. Actual digital on the wires. Put a scope on the line and you'd see pulses. The original implementations were done with tubes!

But as it became a service offering as well as an internal method of multiplexing multiple phone calls on the same wires the term has evolved to usually referring to the 1.544 mbps connection.

If you call the telco and have them put in T-1 service they *might* implement it with an actual T-1 circuit (pulses on the wires) but given the difficulties that entails (such as going out and getting rid of any bridged taps on that particular loop to eliminate echoes from unused and unterminated branches) it's very likely that what they'd install would actually be an xDSL line. Your equipment would see T-1 service at each end on *your* side of their equipment but on their side it's an analog modem signal going down the line. Thus T-1 service without a physical T-1 line. No reason it could not be implemented with fiber as well.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 02-26-2002 08:51 AM      Profile for John Hawkinson   Email John Hawkinson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve said:
quote:
If you call the telco and ahve them put in T-1 service [...] it's very likely that what they'd install would actually be an xDSL line.

That's just not true. A DS1 (aka T1) is a spec for bits over copper pairs (actually two pair), and there are a number of envelopes within which it can be delivered, and I suspect there's a specification for DS1 over fiber, though no one in their right mind would use it (because if you have fiber, you'll carry a DS3 (28 T1s) or an OC{whatever}). There are certainly many specs for how you carry T1s over fiber within large bundles (e.g. VT1.5).

But that's beside the point. You'll never get a T1 delivered over DSL. It's just not possible to guarantee the bit rates and timing that are the definition of T1. It might be true that if you call up a seedy clueless Internet provider and ask for a "T1", they'll interpret your request as asking for a "1.5mbps connection" and then give you a DSL connection instead. But a telephone company would never do that. A T1 has a very clear meaning, and plenty of time it is used for voice and not data anyway (a T1 holds 24 DS0s, or regular voice channels).

Anyhow, in my experience, I've never seen anyone get delivered a T1 directly over fiber. Sure, fiber from the CO to the building to a mux, possibly a mux right next to your T1 handoff, but still, the T1 handoff is generally copper. Nothing else makes sense from a price standpoint.

--jhawk

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-26-2002 09:45 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, It is the Sprint buisness DSL service that we're getting installed. Its the only thing that is available to us at the new location other than a T type line. Sprint's brochure claims that it is 5 times faster than a T-1. I'll run Joe's speed tester site when its installed and report back on its performance.

John is right that a T-1 line is not at all similar to a DSL line. In fact it is not treated at all like a DSL service and is about 10 times more expensive. The modem is also drastically different. Briefly, we used the T-1's that we had installed for a special radio communications system for the Olympics. Instead of installing countless radio type repeaters on mountain tops to communicate between Park City, Snow Bain(Near Ogden) and Salt Lake City we ran these "Psudo" repeaters over the internet via these T-1 lines. In the long haul it was alot cheaper to go this route and alot better audio quality. Qwest provided our T-1 lines and with them 24/7 technical support and guaranteed 4 hour service if the lines went down 7 days a week.

The other problem we would have had with an all radio system is that if a mountain top system went down we would have had to take a secret service agent along with us for the repair. No one was allowed on a roof top or mountain top starting the Thursday before the Opening Ceremony. There was about a 2 day waiting list for Agents to do this.


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 02-26-2002 09:57 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ray,
That is an interesting way to listen to DD. I'll have to try that next time I'm out and can do some listening tests.
I too have heard the high end difference between DTS and DD myself. One must do these comparisons in a theatre with the highest quality B chin available or both systems may sound pretty much the same. I've found that with the new 3-way systems out there it is easier to tell them apart.
I still prefer DD for convenience but DTS is capable of taking their system to greater heights than Dolby would ever be able to with the limited space for data.
Mark @ New GTS

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