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Author Topic: Loud Movies Could Damage Hearing Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 02-22-2003 05:11 PM                       The thing that was only briefly touched on, which the Dr. mentioned, was the fact that most of those level readings were likely from the subs. I sent them an email saying, if they really want to be concerned with loss of the public's hearing, they should take their meter to a concert stadium. Those are often well beyond the threshold of pain.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-22-2003 06:31 PM                        I'm just glad the media is preoccupied with other news right now (impending war, the shuttle disaster, the Rhode Island night club fire, etc.) or else they'd latch onto that story and blow it all out of proportion, like they did with the popcorn thing a few years ago.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-22-2003 06:38 PM                     quote: like they did with the popcorn thing a few years ago. Yikes! This certainly WAS a dark period. I'm glad we were able to switch back eventually. But that's another topic!  |  IP: Logged Michael Gonzalez Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 790 From: Grand Island , NE USA Registered: Sep 2000 posted 02-22-2003 07:13 PM                     quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- like they did with the popcorn thing a few years ago. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So first popcorn, then sound, what does everyone think is going to be next? My vote is the strobe effect that is being used in a lot of films lately causing seizures. I had one customer complain that he had to almost leave Daredevil.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-22-2003 07:36 PM                     I thought I would come back and give you the results of a couple of car stereos two of the kids here at the theatre have. One of the kids is 17, and the other is 18. We went out to their cars, and they turned on their CD players to see what kind of a reading we could get. I asked them to turn it up to the level they normally listen to. The results: One peaked at 96db SPL on the "A" scale, and the "C" scale peaked at about 106 db SPL. This car was the one the 17 year-old was driving. He has a nice rich low end on his stereo. The other kid (the 18-year old) measured 106db SPL "A" scale. I didn't even bother to check the "C" scale. After we finished, we had a little discussion, and both admitted in a blank gaze that "They just didn't know" how high the SPL was. My ears are still ringing from the 106db level that was playing for about one minute. [ 02-23-2003, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-23-2003 01:25 AM                     So do you think they are going to turn down their car systems now that they know?  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-23-2003 11:24 AM                     Manny, I think at least one will, especially the 17 year old. He is a senior in high school, has a 4.0 GPA and addition to that, he already has two years of college credits towards a college degree. I have been told he has a pilot's license "in the bag." He knows what he wants in life, has a tremendous common sense, and knows how to conduct himself in a professional manner on the job and believes in "doing it right" the first time. He dresses well, and keeps himself well groomed at all times. As far as intelligence level is concerned, I have to say that young man is brilliant! The 18-year old is a typical person, active in high school sports, likes to raise hell sometimes, and is interested in keeping his ears intact for a few more years. But, he'll probably sneak the volume level in his car up a few more notches as time goes on....most of them do. Both were extremely interested in the experiment, and we discussed various SPL levels and what the dangers of them are. Management is very happy with both of these young men.  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-23-2003 11:36 AM                        In the mid-80s when we were mounting lots of big rock shows in our large theatre. Those shows didn't use the house sound system because these acts brought in their own (usually the same massive systems that they used in huge stadiums). The speaker stacks are set on the edge of the stage with some patrons sitting less than two feet away from them. The sound pressure close to the stacks would many times rise way above what most ear doctors agree is a safe level. Finally we decided to write a rider into our house contract that says the audio engineer must limit the house SPL so as not to go over 110db for more than 2 minutes at ANY frequence. The rider goes so far as to say that the House has the right, after we have informed the engineer that the sound pressure has risen to unsafe levels, if he does not reduce the harmful SPL, to disconnect the mains to the amp racks. This was about the same time that Van Halen bragged that he loved to make the ears of the audiences BLEED. (Correction Edit: That was a Todd Rungren quote, not good ole VH -- I don't want to be accused of slander. FA) As Brad points out, EQ is extremely important when looking at the kind of sound pressure that hurts the ears. An unequalized room can sound uncomfortably loud even though a sound pressure meter might not show unusually high average levels. We took into consideration the fact that audio range of frequencies are not equally harmful. Low-end pressure will not damage the delicate components of the cochlea as do frequencies in the mid to high range. A searing 5khz at 100spl will do allot more damage more quickly than will a 50hz hum at the same level. Systems that have not been voiced are notorious for having uneven peaks in a variety of frequencies. And it must be noted that sound systems which are trucked in for a one or two night engagement are rarely eq-ed to the room they are playing in, making them a lot more dangerous than systems that are properly voiced. An overall level of an uneq-ed system may very well read safely on an SPL meter, but can still have very dangerous peaks in the "danger zone" of the most harmful frequencies -- mostly the frequencies in the human voice sensitivity range. We also have both pyrotechnics and laser restrictions in our contract. After the recent Rhode Island and Chicago tragedies, it seem unthinkable that any theatre or venue where people congregate in any numbers, that safety concerns are not made the highest of priorities. We are particularly sensitive to any issue of safety because unfortunately and sadly, we lost 9 students in one of the colleges which is part of the City University of New York system when a panic ensued at a concert and the audience tried to exit the theatre thru an exit door that wouldn't open. People were crushed to death. Any time safety issues are ignored or dismissed as bothersome annoyances, THAT's when the worst scenario will play itself out. Bleeding ears by sustained, dangerous SPLs, retinas burned by high wattage laser reflections, fires started by pyrotechnics....it's all out there waiting for carelessness or incompetence, or both. Frank [ 03-06-2003, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 02-23-2003 07:14 PM                     I just noticed this in the Atlanta Sunday paper, in a little section called "The Vent". Anyone can phone-in or email a quick "vent" about anything they want, and the paper prints some of them. "I went to the movies yesterday and now I know why it has been a year since the last time. I value my eardrums."  |  IP: Logged Gerard S. Cohen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 975 From: Forest Hills, NY, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 02-23-2003 07:37 PM                     I lost the hearing on my right ear in the US Army, firing M-1 Garands and M-1 Carbines on a Texas firing range. Back in those Berlin Airlift / Korean War years we were offered NO ear protection devices, nor advice. Some with previous firearm experience stuffed cotton in their ears (and Kotex pads in their shoulders to reduce recoil shock.) The persistant ringing was annoying, at times painful, but I didn't know until later that my hearing was affected, when I couldn't hear what was being said to me by speakers on my right side. Now the military has learned from experience, especially from the Viennam (agent orange) and Desert Storm (chemical pollutants??) eras.  |  IP: Logged Phil Hill I love my cootie bug Posts: 7595 From: Hollywood, CA USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 02-23-2003 08:58 PM                  Gerard, I agree about the hearing loss from firing small arms in the military. I too have lost some of my HF hearing in my right ear because of all the M-14, M-16, and 50-cal firing I did while in Vietnam. (Ummmm…maybe that's why when I tune theatres, everyone complains! HAhahahha J/K) I agree that the Radio Shack ANALOG SPL meter is a great tool for establishing overall sound levels. The digital one is a POS. In the large format 870 and 1570 theatres, I would normally use a Linear-X RTA with six microphone positions to set the EQ curves in the theatre and then leave a color graphical print-out of the curves in the theatre documentation. For simulator rides, I would normally use a commercial exhibition-theatre-type system with 4 mic positions. So many people are so uninformed about sound levels. Two quick examples: One time in a contract negotiation meeting, I was called upon by the client to provide a sustained sound level of 130 dBC with a capability of peaks of 140. Whew, I finally convinced him that that was WAY too high. Not because I told him his patron's ears would bleed, but because of the extreme cost to provide that much amplification and speakers….. what a jerk. The other one that comes to mind is some 10 years ago…my old Iwerks CEO thought he was an audio "expert". One time he was listening to a simulator ride I did and complained that the left screen speaker sounded 1 dB low (yes 1.0, I mean like someone can hear that!). So I "pretended" to adjust something and he yelled "Hold-it…that's perfect!" HAhahahahahah >>> Phil  |  IP: Logged Daryl C. W. O'Shea Film God Posts: 3977 From: Midland Ontario Canada (where Panavision & IMAX lenses come from) Registered: Jun 2002 posted 02-23-2003 09:06 PM                        quote: So I "pretended" to adjust something and he yelled "Hold-it…that's perfect!" HAhahahahahah I've done that with quite a few bands. There's actually one musician that I leave a blank rail beside his and mark it instead of the actual rail. He always manages to sneak an adjustment or two (on the blank rail) and is completely happy with his adjustments.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 02-23-2003 09:13 PM                     Michael, you got me on this one... quote: The military provides high quality war protection devices. Jeeze, I just discovered my typo error today. I have to admit, I was a little "hot under the collar" when I typed that post, and somehow, the typo got by me. Naturally, that word should have been "ear" instead of "war." Brad, your sound system was so easy to listen to I didn't even think about what the SPL might have been. The post about my experiment wth SPL's in the employee's car radios...The 17 year-old had a wonderful sound system in his car, and even at 96 db, it was easy to listen to. The bass response was smooth and pleasent. The other person's car had nothing but mid range and high end, with a very shitty bass response. That 106 db was ear shattering, to say the least!!! Gerard, I went duck hunting one time while I had my 12 gauge double barrel shotgun, and I could not hit a bull in the ass with a Cello! (Edited for Michael... ) So, I pulled out my .357 and blasted away all six rounds...and still missed the ducks! But, it took 3 days for my right ear to start sounding right. Luckly, there was no permanent damage done, according to the doctor. However, I can tell you it is a bitch to hear a low-key Edison Phonograph sound in that ear for those three days. It scared the crap out of me. ...And Phil, I have delt with jerks like that. It is very amusing what you can pull on them and get away with. [ 02-24-2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Paul G. Thompson ]  |  IP: Logged Chad Calpito Film Handler Posts: 23 From: San Diego, CA, USA Registered: Jan 2003 posted 02-23-2003 09:29 PM                     I would have to agree with you Brad. Your points are totally agreeable. Another point, which you some what put in your response, is those loud car audio soundsystems. Those systems are a whole lot louder than in a theater. I simply enjoy going to the movies, not just because a particular movie interests me, but, because the volume is perfect and loud, which does not bother me. But, as a projectionist, I do occassionally have to adjust the volume just a bit during the previews because the trailers are usually louder than the feature presentation. But, I re-adjust the volume for the movie back to it's normal level. Chad  |  IP: Logged Don E. Nelson Expert Film Handler Posts: 138 From: Brentwood, CA, USA Registered: Nov 2001 posted 02-23-2003 09:29 PM                     ....could you guys speak up a little, I am a little hard of hearing these days. Too many loud movies have all but taken away my hearing above 17.5 Khz or could it be too many times sitting in the PA cabinets at Winterland in San Francisco, or maybe I am just getting old.  |  IP: Logged

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