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Topic: Loud Movies Could Damage Hearing

Jeremy Fuentes
Mmmm, Dr. Pepper!

Posts: 1168
From: Corpus Christi, TX United States
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 07-19-2005 09:16 AM

quote: Andy Summers
I’m different and therefore special.

You are special.
Your'e good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit, people like you. [Wink]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-20-2005 08:24 PM

Jeremy, all I know is...you've got a lot of balls. [Razz]

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 07-21-2005 01:14 PM

My long-time friend, video engineering mentor, and former ATSF locomotive engineer now railroad nut Bob Cadigan collects locomotive air horns, whistles, and chimes. He rigged up a Leslie Five Chime on another friend's truck just so we could take it out for a listen once in a while. With 90 pounds of air supplied it's rated at 125dB at 100' from the bells (five bells, sounding the first inversion of an A Major 7 chord). Very impressive sounding in the parking lot of the then Union 76 truck stop on Blue Diamond Road. From inside the cab it was great; outside the cab it was awesome. [Big Grin]

But yeah, ya gotta watch the SPL. I know my hearing is not what it once was after 20+ years of mixing live shows on the Las Vegas Strip and almost that many years flying small planes and working on airline ramps without headphones or hearing protection.

Some house mix position sound level warning signs seen over the years:

"If it's too loud, you're too old."

"Loud is better."

"It's not loud enough unless it ripples the fluid in your eyeballs."

"TAP in progress. Caution: High levels of pink noise and blue language present."

And from the best soundman Las Vegas ever heard, the legendary Dave Rogers:
"Dave Rogers, DdB, MM, CGS" (Doctor of Decibels, Master Mixer, Creator of Gorgeous Sound).

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-21-2005 05:22 PM

Cerwin-Vega's slogan used to be "Loud is beautiful...if it's clean"

[thumbsup]

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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 07-21-2005 06:56 PM

quote:
ut yeah, ya gotta watch the SPL. I know my hearing is not what it once was after 20+ years of mixing live shows on the Las Vegas Strip and almost that many years flying small planes and working on airline ramps without headphones or hearing protection.

Some house mix position sound level warning signs seen over the years:

"If it's too loud, you're too old."

"Loud is better."

"It's not loud enough unless it ripples the fluid in your eyeballs."

"TAP in progress. Caution: High levels of pink noise and blue language present."

And from the best soundman Las Vegas ever heard, the legendary Dave Rogers:
"Dave Rogers, DdB, MM, CGS" (Doctor of Decibels, Master Mixer, Creator of Gorgeous Sound).

This is the kind of macho bullshit that has resulted in an entire generation with premature hearing loss. Every musician I know has hearing loss and most have tinitus.

SPL levels at rock concerts are completely out of hand - it's almost always beyond the threshold of pain. And you know what? It sounds like crap. When it's that loud, the mix turns to mush.

Ridiculous levels are largely the fault of sound mixers who think their ego is dependent on how loud they can make the sound. They also want to feel they have impact on the show, so instead of letting the musicians play with more impact, they drive up the levels. Also, whenever a particular instrument or voice needs to be heard, they ALWAYS drive up that level instead of mixing everything else lower.

I attended a show a few years back at the now defunct Bottom Line, which was a small 300 seat club. The Ed Palermo Big Band played with about 15 musicians on the stage, mostly horns. Every horn was mixed as if it was the soloist--we were blasted out of the club. I was furious because the sound mixer was some kid who was wearing a wool cap and HAD IT PULLED OVER HIS EARS!

Whatever happened to dynamic range?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-21-2005 08:01 PM

I absolutely agree. An occasional "sting" or sequence that is loud is fine...use the dynamic range of the system...a jet taking off is supposed to be loud...and eyelash flapping should not be.

Hearing a film should be comfortable and enjoyable. The Dolby loudness meter was actually a really great idea that has had limited application applied to trailers.

It should be give a bit more power in that a number established that if the trailer exceeds, contractually an exhibitor does not need to play.

Sooner or later, out meddling congress will feel the need to protect our ears and try to establish stupid limits like...though shall not exceed 90dB or some such nonsense (I saw that happen when I was in Jr. HS where they tried to apply that to Rock Bands...back when kids used to hear live ones instead of DJs). The problem isn't the overall level...it is the duration of the loud levels.

The Dolby meter takes that into account so that the "number" is based on how loud the film is over the length of the film. Thus you can have your Bombs explode and shake the place but you are going to have to balance that with some lower levels and if your whole film is bombing (like a war film) then your maximum level is going to have to be lower. You can't expose people to levels above 90 dB for hours and not expect to be causing hearing damage. Most every study I've seen and OSHA requirements specifies the loudness over a period of time. This really should be considered when a film is mixed. One really can't just turn the overall level down (which is what is being done in many theatres) that just crushes the dialog which never seems to be given prominance as it used to be when films were mixed better (in my opinion).

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David Buckley
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 525
From: Oxford, N. Canterbury, New Zealand
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 07-21-2005 08:34 PM

quote: Martin Brooks
Ridiculous levels are largely the fault of sound mixers who think their ego is dependent on how loud they can make the sound. They also want to feel they have impact on the show, so instead of letting the musicians play with more impact, they drive up the levels. Also, whenever a particular instrument or voice needs to be heard, they ALWAYS drive up that level instead of mixing everything else lower.

You are, of course, talking utter bollocks.

One of the most discussed topics amongst engineers is how to control stage volume so that the mix (and in particular, vocals) doesnt have to try and "get over" excessive stage volume.

As an extreme example, try
This link

My gig next week is mixing the local school's annual show. Same hall we show movies in on a saturday night, come to think of it. You think my goal is to see how many parents (of which I am one) complain its too loud?

Sound engineers generally are not that different to film-tech folks - they want to do the best show possible within the constraints they find themselves in. Sure theres idiots and the irresponsible, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Anyway, back on topic - Ken Dibble did some excellent work in the 70s regarding "noise" exposure in discos, and why measurements intended for industrial use are not very applicable to music. Cant put my hand on the article at the moment, unfortunately, its filed somewhere, and I just cant quite recall where...

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 07-21-2005 09:34 PM

In my experience the "ego" about SPL was never with the house mixer. It was always with the act, or the producer, or the hotel entertainment director. You mixed it the way they wanted it or you stood in line down at 8th and Carson to collect your unemployment check. At that time I liked to eat (and pay rent, and fly, and go to school), so guess how I reacted to the order, "turn it up."

To bring this back to movie sound, in 1997 I attended a joint SMPTE/AES meeting at the AMPAS Samuel Goldwyn Theater in Beverly Hills, CA. The occasion was to hear John Eargle give a paper and to hear the then-new JBL tri-amped screen channels that had just been installed there. The movie used for the demo screening was Batman & Robin which was played back at a horrendously loud level, especially for those of us in the 4th row. Now I like loud as much as the next guy, but this was ridiculous. After the screening there was a short Q&A with the film's sound designer.

The first question up was, "Was it that loud on the mixdown stage?", which got a chuckle out of the audience. But the guy's proud response was quite telling of the attitude, "Oh no. On the mixdown stage it was MUCH louder!" Apparently Joel Schumacher likes things really loud. The designer joked that there should be a disclaimer, "If it's a Joel Schumacher film you don't want to sit in the front row."

So what's a sound pro to do? In my case I got tired of arguing against but ultimately mixing to what I thought were increasingly insane SPLs and finally quit that niche of the business altogether. Nobody was sad to see me go either. There will always be some young Turk looking for a chance to mix front-of-house or monitors or final mixdown to whatever SPLs the bosses want. Of course as a projectionist I can turn the fader down, as long as deaf bosses aren't around.

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Lindsay Morris
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 233
From: Darlington, WA, Australia
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 07-21-2005 09:57 PM

Long term noise exposure certainly does have dramatic effects on the human ear.

I spent many many hours in telephone switching centres in my previous career as a telephone techie.

Never really gave the noise much thought, neither did my fellow workers and in those days there was just nothing much written or studied in Occ Health circles on noise exposure.

At about age 50 I began to experience gradual bursts of mild tinitus which steadily got worse.

Was sort of attributed to the past exposure but was all rather grey as to just when where etc etc .

Besides the switching plant noise the areas I worked in often had their own power generating systems so frequently we would be in very hot and noisy engine rooms doing services whilst the other plants were running.

Ear muffs were not heard of and not used until many years later when we did manage to get a set or two. Then we discovered the fact that the screaming noise was almost totally wiped out and you could almost carry on normal conversations with fellow staff and you could quite easily hear the valve gear clatter. How peaceful things were then but by then the damage was well and truly done.

In the 1980's Occ Health became a more important issue and ear muffs became mandatory in all engine rooms but nothing was ever done for noise in the switching plant rooms which at peak times was quite loud and irritating to some. All that gear (crossbar ARF) has now been replaced by digital (AXE & System 12) switching sytems which are almost silent.

Interestingly almost ALL of my fellow workers now have some form of hearing damage be it tinitus or just overall loss of sensitivity... but we are all 65+ now so some drop off is to be expected.
As Occ Health concerns re hearing damage took hold they trotted out a very good 16mm film titled "Who Stole The Quiet Day". If you can ever source that one and have a look at it I think you will totally change the way in which you handle loud sound levels.
It is a very sobering film and explains the process of hearing damage which is the destruction of the fibre like nerve endings within our ears which are killed off by loud noise exposure.
They NEVER regrow and as you age others also die off so by the time you reach middle age your hearing is well and truly stuffed and on the way out.
I showed that film to both my teenage sons at the time and one who was a very active drummer in a small group took to wearing ear plugs whenever he played in the group much to the amusement to the others in the band. I think his hearing will survive better than some of the others in that group [thumbsup]

I now have a copy of that film in my collection and screen it whenever the subject of loud music/films arise in the film buff group I am involved in. It has had a very positive effect on some of those group members who used to be tempted to run the volume a bit on the high side.
At the outdoor I set the volume by means of the VU meters I have installed and do not rely totally upon them.
I frequently do a walk around at the rear of the auditorium observeing the sound levels myself and asking patrons if the sound is OK. I have found that if I have to strain to hear dialogue clearly then that is about just right for most towards the rear of the cinema. By that process I have been able to set the VU meters to reflect pretty well what should be normal for most.
I have walked out of some Complex cinemas when the sound was overly loud or very muffled (blown HF driver??)and got only a mere shrug of the shoulders at the Box Office if I complained.
I have even sat thru some Trade Shows with a finger stuffed in an ear to mitigate the very loud sound and when comparing notes with others afterwards found that they too disliked the sound levels.
Totally agree with Steve that the film is to be enjoyed and not destroyed by loud sound. Next time you feel tempted to wind up the wick a bit to show off the sound system be careful you may also be contributing to the ultimate destruction of your patrons hearing [Roll Eyes]

You might even get sued.
Lindsay

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Andy Summers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 397
From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-22-2005 07:03 AM

Well this is geting very interesting now guys.

quote:
________________________________________________________________
ut yeah, ya gotta watch the SPL. I know my hearing is not what it once was after 20+ years of mixing live shows on the Las Vegas Strip and almost that many years flying small planes and working on airline ramps without headphones or hearing protection.

Some house mix position sound level warning signs seen over the years:

"If it's too loud, you're too old."

"Loud is better."

"It's not loud enough unless it ripples the fluid in your eyeballs."

"TAP in progress. Caution: High levels of pink noise and blue language present."

And from the best soundman Las Vegas ever heard, the legendary Dave Rogers:
"Dave Rogers, DdB, MM, CGS" (Doctor of Decibels, Master Mixer, Creator of Gorgeous Sound).
________________________________________________________________

Who as got the time to produce a new white paper report on films being loud, I mean I have all ready read one that Dolby Labs produced back in the late 1990’s, as for Batman & Robin I have that on DVD and I have to agree its loud.

I’ll have to do a test with the for Batman films, with Batman begins coming out on DVD late in the year the very least early 2006, is the dialogue still matched for (85db) or as that changed and I haven’t noticed this change.

Well I’ll find out later, takes a little while for me to develop an idea on how I’m going to do this as listening to nearly close to 7 ½ hours is going to drive me Batty… [rachel]

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-22-2005 09:38 AM

Andy said"Well I’ll find out later, takes a little while for me to develop an idea on how I’m going to do this as listening to nearly close to 7 ½ hours is going to drive me Batty… [rachel] "

Andy why the rachel pix she isn't batty maybe you are [Smile]

Years ago I did some screenings for a certain large format film and thought the track was unreasonable and said so and the sound engineer replied to my comment of the fact that any theatre playing this title would just turn the fader down and the rely was well the narration track is being recorded low enough that if you do it will be inaudable so there will be no choice

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Andy Summers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 397
From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-22-2005 01:44 PM

Well I have endured two “Batman” films so far and the results on DVD is good, Batman 1989 as a strange mix, with some centre sounds being placed on the main left and right, with around 6db difference with the centre channel mix.

However the dialogue was clearly reproduced and isolated with, “Vicky vale’s” scream at a comfortable (85dba) and with the Lucasfilm THX sound system reference 0db 85db SPL level on all channels with EQ applied to all 8 channels, this brightness on this mix on was unheard of.

Low end was something and I had to keep reminding myself this isn’t the Empire Leicester Square, or the once called Warner West End, but feeling the impacts of body punches with help from the Foley department is quite something, on chapter 7 / 25min 6sec a huge peak at 62Hz at 98dbc as “Batman” knocks one of the bad guys lights out.

And on chapter 16 / 1Hr 7 min 18 sec where “Batman” decides down onto four of the “Joker’s” men with an organ sound like low end rumble peaking at 40Hz 100dbc to be followed be a hail of gun fire shortly afterwards.

“Batwing” flying though the night, this is not as loud one may think, its more mid range and low end to it, with some cool music mixing hyping the tension on the showdown with the “Batman & the Joker” but as one showdown leads to another, the palms begin to sweat.

End credits, is soft sounding as was the opening peaking at 85db.

Conclusion, though this is only a basic report on my findings, I’ll watch “Batman” again in THX knowing it’s not going to be bright sounding, with lots of low end accompanying the films look and style…

“Batman Returns” report later with “Batman forever” and lastly “Batman & Robin” well I’ll see if the Re-EQ of the home Lucasfilm THX sound system, holds up and keeping the bright sounding “Armageddon” offender films at bay… [Smile]

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Andy Summers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 397
From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-22-2005 05:51 PM

After surviving the loudness’ of “Batman Forever” the opening credits where 6db louder than the “Batman” and “Batman Returns” LFE had to be reduced to prevent damage, this still played to realistic effectiveness, as my whole body was vibrating due too the aggressiveness of this mad mix.

116dbc SPL when the loud dynamics come in, soft sounds like voices where not realistically reproduced, but clear never the less, it as to be said “Batman Forever” is JBL Just Bloody Loud, while a lot of bass is on the three-screen channels and the split-surrounds giving a shacking effect that very few cinemas can do or achieve, except the THX and IMAX cinemas.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-22-2005 06:20 PM

Andy DVD playback at home one is sittin in the near field sound field and in a large theatre one is in the far field and as such the mix does change in some respects
anyway this is a film forum not home DVD forum so I don't worry about the DVD [Smile]

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Andy Summers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 397
From: Bournemouth Dorset United kingdom
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 07-22-2005 07:08 PM

Hallo there

Gordon

That is very true, far field and near field, I was aware that, Gordon, your own opinion which do you think and feel is better far field or near field, and its not easy to grab something of the self like four Batman films, are let me rephrase that five Batman films.

So what did “Batman Begins” sound and feel like in the “IMAX” cinema where you work at, and more importantly what was the sound pressure level in the “IMAX” these facts I like to know please.

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