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This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Topic: Loud Movies Could Damage Hearing
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Martin Brooks
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 900
From: Forest Hills, NY, USA
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-23-2005 12:27 PM
quote: David Buckley
You are, of course, talking utter bollocks.
One of the most discussed topics amongst engineers is how to control stage volume so that the mix (and in particular, vocals) doesnt have to try and "get over" excessive stage volume.
Stage volume is not the issue -- at the shows I attend, there's a completely separate mix for the stage. The acts are generally behind the house sound, so they have no idea what it's like for the audience. (And for the record, although I haven't done a lot of rock band live mixing, I have been a recording engineer.) I have encouraged acts to get a radio mic and come out into the audience, so they can hear what it's actually like. Also, many (but certainly not all) musicians now wear hearing protection on stage. But one of the things I've also noticed is that the musicians who have hearing loss are constantly waving to the stage mixer to raise the level of their mic in the stage mix, especially when they're about to solo.
It's very simple: if you leave a show with ringing ears, you have damage. And if you have damage, it's TOO FREAKING LOUD. If you don't like that response, bring an SPL meter to a show. I guarantee you that most shows exceed U.S. OSHA regulations for factories. I'm amazed that there hasn't yet been a lawsuit in the U.S. by an employee of a club or concert hall who is claiming that their hearing has been damaged by the excessive levels.
quote: Paul Mayer
In my experience the "ego" about SPL was never with the house mixer. It was always with the act, or the producer, or the hotel entertainment director. You mixed it the way they wanted it or you stood in line down at 8th and Carson to collect your unemployment check. At that time I liked to eat (and pay rent, and fly, and go to school), so guess how I reacted to the order, "turn it up."
Yes, sometimes it's the house and I suppose sometimes it's the act, although as per the above, most of the time the act has no idea how it sounds in the audience. When I had complained to acts who appeared at the Bottom Line about the sound, they told me they had no control over the sound - it was a house decision. What was completely frustrating was that traditionally, the BL had great sound.
Also, in many shows I attend, the sound actually starts out okay. But as the show progresses, it gets louder and louder. That is not the act or the house. That is the engineer feeling like he should be doing something (or perhaps experiencing aural tedium or deafness) and pushing the levels up. I frequently watch the mixers during a show. They never leave well-enough alone.
As far as films are concerned, the only film in recent memory that I found too loud (and I may have had a particular sensitivity that day) were the fight scenes in Cinderella Man. I had to hold my ears for that one. There are still some occasional trailers that are too loud, but it's relatively rare in the last few years. In many cases, I find the sound of the trailers to be better than the feature.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-23-2005 06:55 PM
"I CAN'T HEAR THE MONITORS"....quote from a musician to the sound engineer and heard at EVERY sound check I have ever been at as either the sound engineer or the house guy listening to the act's sound guy during the sound check. It's the musicians who insist on deafening sound. Loud covers a lot of bad talent. I once was asked by a stage manager if I could do anything about a singer who just sounded aweful. "Yah," sez I, "I can turn off her mic." Actually, I take that back a bit. I think they really are insisting on intimidating stacks of speakers and racks and racks of amps sitting on stage so everyone can see what a big one they've got -- the deafeningly loud sound is only secondary. "I can't hear the monitors" is simply proof that they are already deaf and want to take the audience with them.
The house almost never pushes for hotter audio. Bigger sound systems cost more money; the house never wants to spend more money --you can take that to the bank. The act, on the other hand passes the system cost back to the house, so as far as they are concerned, it doesn't cost them to say they want 10 bins on stage or 100. They are the kids in the candy store and daddy is buying.
We are ALWAYS in tough and tumble with the "artistic directors" of acts where they want the sound louder and we are fighting tooth and nail to drop it back to reasonable levels. We have a sound pressure limit clause in the contract with anyone who books our facility. I have literally been caught between our house producer who books in dance companies for our World of Dance series. One very famous company's artistic director and I were setting levels during rehearsal. He is on headset telling me to bring it up another 3 points and then I am on the phone with the house producer saying, "What the hell is wrong with you, it's much too loud, pull it way back." "Yah, but....but..." And so it went until I refused to talk to either of them and told them to talk to each other and let me know when they've come up with a compromise.
At least with dance companies, our audience is older and they will complain when they find it too loud. With rock or pop acts, the audience is younger and like sheep, they will all sit ten feet in front of a jet engine if Britney Spears were performing on the wing.
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