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Topic: Cyan Tracks
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-18-2003 07:29 AM
Per Hauberg wrote:
quote:
"Dual inventory" ?
Have I got something wrong here - Is this new red track not placed, where the silver has always been ? -If so, how should it be dual ?
And second: Is it right, that the red readers has trouble with old tracks ?
As others have noted, "dual inventory" would involve making two sets of prints, cyan dye tracks for theatres with red LED readers, and tracks with (silver + dye) for theatres still using "white light" readers using tungsten exciter lamps. "Dual Inventory" is NOT a viable long term option because of the difficulty in assuring the right type of print goes to each theatre.
"Old tracks" are being played every day with red LED readers, as the majority of US and Canadian screens already use red LED readers. Currently, "high magenta" (magenta dye + silver) analog tracks are more compatible with a mix of reader types than the traditional (cyan + magenta + silver) tracks, because the cross-modulation optimization density is more nearly the same for both types of reader with "high magenta".
Brad's humorous piece points out the confusion and "foot dragging" that still exists among some theatre owners. The bottom line is that a red LED reader IS required to properly play back a cyan dye track. Using a white light reader (even if theatres "go down to Wal*Mart and buy some of those red colored report covers and wrap it around the bulbs") will result in very unacceptable signal-to-noise, because without silver in the analog track, the infrared energy from the exciter lamp will not be modulated by the track.
And although the non-technical people at the studios (who are the ones who usually write those sometimes humorous faxes and press releases) may not fully understand the technology, the studio technical experts HAVE been participating in the industry Dye Track Committee right from the start, and are fully aware of the issues.
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Stephen Furley
Film God
Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-18-2003 11:18 AM
This is the way I see it.
The studios probably don't care one way or the other.
The labs would rather convert due to reduced costs.
The distributors would want to convert if it meant a cheaper print price, per foot from the labs. They definately wouldn't want to go dual-inventory.
The equipment manufacturers would want to convert because they would make a profit on the conversion kits they would sell.
The theatres which have converted, or have bought red-light fitted machines from new wouldn't care one way or the other.
The theatres which have not converted would rather stay with silver. These are probably going to be mainly smaller, independent type places, there are plenty of them, but they are not likely to have much influence on the industry as a whole.
There's no sign of it here yet, but if the industry wants to go over, it will. The only people who would have an interest in stopping it are not the ones with any power. The distributors are not going to stock dual inventory, except, possibly, for a very short time, they will tell the theatres to either convert, close or stop showing film. Disks were still pressed for theatres which had installed only this system, and not sound on film, but I can't see this happening this time.
My guess, if this release does go ahead, is that they will send out cyan prints to all theatres, possibly after, or with, a warning about them not being suitable for older equipment. If a theatre cannot play a print the distributors will say that it is not their problem.
Scott wrote:
quote:
Obviously this isn't a problem for most of the newer theatres, but I've worked in many older houses that haven't converted (at least one of which simply can't convert...unless there's an LED kit for Western Electric Universal Bases available somewhere). This will also be "fun" for the many booths which run film only a couple of times per year or so and whose owners (who usually aren't film people) may not have gotten the news about the need to "upgrade."
I'm afraid that the people who make these decisions for the distributors are out of touch with the independent exhibitor and only seem to care about the newer "highest grossing locations." Sad.
Leo wrote:
quote:
When I left the industry just over two years ago, the situation was very much as Scott describes it. The big chains had already converted, but many of the fleapits and arts centres hadn't (and I know of some which still haven't).
I can't speak for the situation elsewhere in the world, but, unless they have converted recently, I would say that the majority of independent places here are still using tungsten exciters; I've only ever seen leds a couple of times. We are not only talking about small places either. The Fairfield Halls, Croydon has a concert hall of almost 2000 seats, (not all of which would be sold for a film show, the first few rows are far too close to the screen, and the screen would be far too high from this position), and a somewhat smaller theatre. Both are equipped for film, and typically run a few shows per month, when I last spoke to one of their technicians a few months ago they were considering what to do. I don't know if they have converted yet. Just acouple of minutes walk away is a very small single screen art-house type venue, opened just a few years ago with a pair of new FP-30Ds with white light. About half a minutes walk from this is an even newer large multiplex, ten screens I think, opened about a year ago, I suspect that this has leds, but I don't know for sure.
I haven't done a survey of UK cinemas, but based on those I have seen I would say there are many which have not converted, and in the case of the independents, it may be 'most'.
Overall, the most common projectors are probably Cinemeccanica, followed by Kinoton; I don't think there would be much of a problem converting either of those. Independents often have older machines, Westars are quite common, and there are still some Kalees around. I think almost all of the Ross and BTH machines have gon now, I haven't seen any for a few years. Whether there are conversions for these older machines, I don't know.
It's been years since I've seen a working Western base Scott, and I can't remember what the optical head is like. Fitting a reverse scan would require a lot of engineering I think, but you might be able to rig up a red source and a modern photodiode on a home made mounting bracket somehow.
If this does happen, I suspect that many venues will simply stop showing film, I know of a number of places that only do a few shows each year, and for these places, abandoning film altogether would be a cheap and viable option.
16mm has been mentioned from time to time. I think that most 16mm machines, at least portable ones, would be difficult to fit with new sound heads, but very few 16mm prints are being made now anyway, it has become almost entirely a production format for television. I can't see a lab which has given up silver track redevelopment for 35mm being prepared to retain the facility for the very small proportion of their work which is 16mm, so it would probably be the end for new 16mm prints. I don't think that DTS is going to be the answer for 16mm; I have never seen it, but as I understand it, the code cannot co-exist with either optical of magnetic sound on the print. This would mean dual inventory again, which has never been acceptable to the industry. There is still quite a bit of 16mm projection done with portable equipment. It only takes half an hour or so for an operator to set up a portable machine, or a pair of them, in a hall, and be ready for a show, having to lug around all the DTS equipment, and set it up, for each show, is not desirable in this situation.
What would happen if you were to fit a red filter over the exciter, and an infra-red absorbing filter over the cell? would you be able to get a usable output signal? How noisy would it be? Good enough for normal use? For emergency use? For a commentary track on 16mm? Does anyone know. The only dye-only tracks I have seen were on Super 8 prints, these were magenta and cyan, and never had silver, so all optical sound projectors were designed to be able to play them, and it was never a very widely used format anyway.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-18-2003 11:28 AM
Per asked:
quote:
I believe we have had some few trailers - sounding OK in screen two with red led, but weak in screen one with exciter lamp - correct ?
Cyan dye analog tracks are cyan (sky blue) in color, with NO dark gray silver stripe over them. Conventional tracks either look dark blue (cyan+magenta) or magenta ("high magenta"), with a dark gray band of silver over them. AFAIK, no trailers have been made with cyan dye tracks, except for the 5-minute UK production of "Red Alert" made to demonstrate the technology:
UK Production of "Red Alert" Trailer
Per wrote:
quote:
16mm has been mentioned from time to time. I think that most 16mm machines, at least portable ones, would be difficult to fit with new sound heads, but very few 16mm prints are being made now anyway, it has become almost entirely a production format for television. I can't see a lab which has given up silver track redevelopment for 35mm being prepared to retain the facility for the very small proportion of their work which is 16mm, so it would probably be the end for new 16mm prints.
AFAIK, 16mm prints will continue to have silver + dye tracks. Different (usually much slower) processing machines are usually used for 16mm, so most labs would retain the present procedures for 16mm. As you note, only a small proportion of the work is 16mm, so the environmental impact is much less than for billions of feet of 35mm print each year.
Gordon wrote:
quote:
Actually Kinoton had a one using a dichroic glass filter and a high power slide projector lamp as a cheap conversion
As long as you filter out all the infrared energy and use a red filter, a tungsten lamp can be used. The trick is getting enough light, since so much is filtered out. Red LEDs emit their energy right at the peak of the cyan dye, so they are the most efficient, and need no additional filtration.
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Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-18-2003 12:11 PM
I wonder what the studios will do if they start getting a lot of complaints from people who go to those smaller theaters that have not converted yet, and do not have digital audio, and the people say the sound was awfull, and they will not be buying the DVD or VHS when they come out? I would not even try to explain the switch to cyan, the consumer would not understand, and just say, "well, if it's a problem, then just change back to silver".
This whole system is about money. If the consumer doesn't buy it, then changes will have to be made.
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John Pytlak
Film God
Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-18-2003 12:52 PM
If you read all of the material posted on
http://www.dyetracks.org
you will see that there is are MANY advantages to eliminating redevelopment of silver in the analog soundtrack area. The significant water savings, reduced use of hydroquinone and caustic sodium hydroxide, reduced process effluent, almost 100% recovery of all the silver in the film, reduced print waste/makeovers for soundtrack application problems, improved picture quality, etc. are compelling reasons to convert, especially when multiplied by over ten BILLION of feet of 35mm prints made annually.
Bruce: If a theatre plays a cyan dye analog track on a white light reader, the signal to noise will be very poor, and the hiss may be louder than the dialogue! Likely the audience will complain immediately.
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