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Author Topic: Cyan Tracks Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 07-20-2003 08:46 AM                     Leo, to the best of my knowledge no digital tracks, Dolby, SDDS or CDS on conventional chromogenic colour prints have ever contained silver. The early Dolby digital readers used white light exciters, but were reading visible radiation, so no re-development of silver in the track was required. A thought has just crossed my mind; what happens if Technicolor decide to revive imbibition printing again? IB prints have silver tracks.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-20-2003 08:55 AM                     Steve you are incorrect the frequency response of the cyan track is identicle to that of a redeveloped one The signal to noise is slightly worse but not by what I would define as an audible amount (it is about 1.5db) The cross mod distortion is slightly higher The red leds in the last few years have not had the same fadeing issues since they operate on much lower current And even at there worse they still had less output level change than most excitor lamp systems experienced. The laser systems also offer improved hifrequency response and seperation as well  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 07-20-2003 11:19 AM                    Ah but I didn't say "frequency response" which would mean a drop of high end relative to the rest. I said just said it "offers worse response" which is correct: You get poorer S/N across the board. The fact that proponents advocate Dolby SR to cover the poorer sound infers that it must indeed be audible and ought to have everyone scratching their head since we already are using SR on analog. So all of you who insist on equating cyan & red light with the change to reverse scan technology when in fact they are related only in the sense of forcing change upon you by all means go ahead and upgrade to the best analog sound you will ever have and then prepare for it to drop in quality a notch when cyan comes along (although you'll still have the clean separation).  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-20-2003 11:48 AM                     Again the increase SN is so small I doubt it is a real issue Also the increased noise is not in the cyan print but is also present in any print that uses a red light reader in the same amount and is a function of monochromatic light. Also this increased noise would only be audible when the bias lines are fully open which would only occur during a loud portion of the track anyway which the loud sound would mask as well  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-20-2003 02:35 PM                     First off...noise is noise....not just when the bias lines are open...to make such a statement is to misunderstand noise theory completely...it is the same mistake that people make with digital theory. As for audibility, 1dB is audible...it is how the damn scale was chosen...the increase in noise is closer to 2dB...just with High-Magenta tracks. Optical sound isn't so good in the noise department to begin with...every dB counts. IR readers were not associtated with forward scan at all though some forward scan systems exploited the fact that the IR component of the white light source was the most sensistive part. Most IR systems that have been installed were in fact on reverse scan systems. The Kelmar and Component Engineering readers were developed for the IR system. IR and visible red light sources can not be interchanged on a reverse can reader system easily. These are optical systems and the lens will have a different refractive index as one varies the wavelength of light. Whereas these lenses are nearly if not completly "simple" and we are using monochromatic (single color) light sources, the change in light source between visible and IR will result in a real focus change. As to cyan being better or an "improvement" in and of itself...that is just factually and technically completely wrong. There may be some residual environmental improvement that has nothing to do with the techncial response of the system. The environmental impact hasn't shown itself to be significant in the global sense. The US EPA is more concerned about cow farts than silver redevelopment. Cost wise, it can't be too significant an improvement since zero cost savings are to be passed on to the exhibitors. If environmental impact were the majority concern...then film should be discontinued in favor of more environmentally friendly media such as reusable hard drives and digital projection. However, just as I don't think DCinema is ready for prime time, neither do I think cyan should be able to force its stupid way into society either. If you read between the lines on the propoganda of visible red LEDs you will see such bull as "high-magenta" has the cross-mod distortion equal between visible and IR/white light sources. Sounds like a good plan, right? Wrong, it should really be stated..."High-magenta degrades the soundtrack so that IR sounds worse and visible red is passable." If there is a published test of the longevity of cyan tracks...the fastest fading color, I sure haven' seen it. As to stability of the visible red LEDs...it is strictly up to the batch you get...some last nearly forever, some seem to fade before you put them in...and that remains true to this day. Without exception, I haven't had to change and IR leds due to fade. Without exception, all of the visible LEDs that I've pulled in favor of IR LEDs have been quite pleased with the IR leds over the visible ones. It should be noted however, these venues run a high quantity of older films with conventional tracks as well as some of the various colored density tracks. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-20-2003 02:36 PM                     Of course since there is no decent pink noise test film available any longer who really can state what their frequency response actually is.......Its all but impossible. There are only going to be 500 prints of this film struck....oddly isn't it a Woody Allen film....... Bet its in Mono sound too . Mark  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-20-2003 03:00 PM                     You know the early RED LED did loose output but the ones I have installed in the last 2 or so years seem very stable and I have yet to have a Jax Light not produce enough output and have had no ACL lasers fail and only 4 out 48 ernemann lasers need replacing and in there case it was after 2 years of being on 24 hrs per day Also there has been some debate that the cyan track may actually have better high freq response closer to BW since it exposes only one layer of the film and as such may have better resolution  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 07-20-2003 04:14 PM                        One question about the environmental part of the issue: isn`t most of the silver regained and reused?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-20-2003 04:26 PM                     The silver is removed and recouverd from the image area in all but the high silver style prints The soundtrack area of a standard or a high magenta still contains silver as that is what is blocking the white light of an excitor and as such modulating the track A cyan print will have all the silver removed  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 07-20-2003 04:38 PM                        Can the silver be recycled from used prints?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-20-2003 04:45 PM                     The print would have to be reprocessed to bleech out the silver  |  IP: Logged Michael Schaffer "Where is the Boardwalk Hotel?" Posts: 4143 From: Boston, MA Registered: Apr 2002 posted 07-20-2003 05:29 PM                        ...rather than just thrown away? So if we have all silver free prints, then we can just throw away the old prints with a better conscience? How about generally collecting and reprocessing the prints? Then the silver would not be a problem anymore. Oh, I see - that would be more expensive. So, let`s save costs on that side and simply pass on the costs to the exhibitors. $500.000 for a really big chain to convert? No problem, they have the money. At least until one of the employees who run everything asks for $0.5 rise of pay, then unfortunately there is no money.  |  IP: Logged Jean-Michel Grin Expert Film Handler Posts: 222 From: Geneva & Lausanne, Switzerland Registered: Jul 2002 posted 07-20-2003 06:05 PM                        We asked to Dolby If the Cat 700 or 699 will be compatible with cyan track: They respond to us that theses readers are 100 % compatible with the new cyan print.  |  IP: Logged John Pytlak Film God Posts: 9987 From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 07-20-2003 10:11 PM                        Kodak's subsidiary FPC recycles prints, and recovers the silver: http://www.fpchollywood.com/fscsalvage.html But not all prints are properly recycled. Many are just burned or put into landfills, so the silver in the analog soundtrack is lost. The labs are able to recover nearly all of the silver, EXCEPT for that left in the analog soundtrack. As Gordon notes, a few releases deliberately leave some silver in the picture area by reducing the bleaching or redeveloping some picture-area silver. As far as cyan dye fading, traditional analog soundtracks (the kind Steve Guttag prefers) DID use the cyan dye layer to absorb light (tracks were exposed to form cyan dye + magenta dye + silver). So in the years before Kodak introduced more stable cyan dyes in the early 1980's, the analog soundtracks DID fade.  |  IP: Logged Paul G. Thompson The Weenie Man Posts: 4718 From: Mount Vernon WA USA Registered: Nov 2000 posted 07-20-2003 10:25 PM                     This is basically an area I know nothing about. However, I do have a strong tendency to accept the communtary that Steve Guttag wrote. Now I wonder how DTS is going to stand up to (shall I say for lack of better words) the "new format?"  |  IP: Logged

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