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Topic: Cyan Tracks

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-22-2003 01:52 PM

Water, Water, Everywhere??? (and not a drop to drink???)

Several here have claimed that water conservation is not important. Tell that to the people, farmers, and industries in regions that are facing increasingly severe water shortages, including some key film production centers like Los Angeles, New York City, Mexico City, Tokyo, etc.:

California Water Policy

California Monolake Organization

Desert Sun article: Imperial Valley California Farmers Water Shortage

The Coming Water Crisis

US House Resources Committee

University of Waterloo article

World Water Council

Tokyo Water Shortage

NY Times: Bloomberg Declares Drought Emergency in NYC

NY Times article 2

Washington DC Water Shortage

BBC News

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-22-2003 02:04 PM

John I am not complaining about water conservation. Many states are experiencing shortages. The snow packs in the mountains are just simply "not enough" and the water tables are very low. Major fires are raging and I can tell you that Washington State, Montana, North Dakota, Arizona, and many other states are really going to be in deep trouble. The forests are so dry it is like buying a 2X4 from Home Depot that has been kiln dried. In the Pacific Northwest, there are tons of signs posted about fire dangers being extremely high. On the other side of the Cascade Range, it is like a desert.

I just spent a ton of money making sure my property is relatively safe from a major grass and schrub fire. Others have done the same. August is going to be a very critical time this year.

What I am complaining about is simply this..... we know there is a shortage, there has been for years. However, those "in charge" just sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away. They have done exactly the same with other resources such as oil. By time it reaches critical mass, it'll be much too late to salvage the situation. The best way to create a shortage on anything is to do nothing about it...and that is what is happening.

The technology has been in place for many years....but nobody wants to improve it and make it work on a large scale. Look at the bottled water today....When Brad, Josh and I along with a bunch of other guys got some distilled water for his cooling system in his screening room, a gallon was almost as expensive as a gallon of off-the-road Diesel fuel. What is it going to be like 20 years from now?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-22-2003 02:13 PM

Paul wrote:

quote:
The best way to create a shortage on anything is to do nothing about it...and that is what is happening.

quote:
When Brad, Josh and I along with a bunch of other guys got some distilled water for his cooling system in his screening room, a gallon was almost as expensive as a gallon of off-the-road Diesel fuel. What is it going to be like 20 years from now?

Some may argue that the water the labs use is "just a drop in the bucket" compared to farmers and other industries. But every drop does count as water becomes scarce. Eliminating the need for soundtrack redevelopment IS doing something about it.

Over half of the water required to process print film is wasted by the need to wash off the caustic soundtrack developer:

http://www.dyetracks.org/projectors.and.water.html

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-22-2003 02:26 PM

First off...water, the bulk of this planet, can hardly be considered scarce or in any way a shortage. Aside from shooting it into space, we are in a closed system.

As to Mr. P's links...check out the one for Washington DC...check the date (or year for that matter)...for this year 2003 we are in flood conditions...the grounds can no longer accept any additional water. The envirowackos only seem to come out when the sky is falling.

As to the 3-dB downgrade...think about it...the EXHIBITOR is expected to pay for a downgrade that has not been time-tested. There is no EPA (in the USA) cause for immediate adoption. As such this the wrong time. If proper long-term testing were done and improvement could be offered, then they would have a case...as it stands, they are smoke and mirrors technical grounds and practicing reckless engineering with the industry as their playground.

From a business standpoint, if film's days are numbered, why invest in an incompatible system at this stage? If film is to be around for decades, then what is the rush? Either way, cyan at this time is stupid.

Steve

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-22-2003 02:45 PM

Steve said:

quote:
First off...water, the bulk of this planet, can hardly be considered scarce or in any way a shortage. Aside from shooting it into space, we are in a closed system.

I certainly agree with Steve. However, I was in reference to fresh water, the stuff we have to drink to survive. I think we should develope large scale technology to tap the sea water by improving the basic technology that has been in place for years so it can be used to make it into fresh water on a large scale.

BTW, in case you are not aware of this, water used in the plumbing (with the exception of showering water) on board ship is sea water. Fresh water is not used to flush the toilets or urinals. R-22-based Freon systems for stand-alone air conditioners used sea water for condenser cooling. The main plants for chilled water air conditioner systems used recirculated fresh water in a closed loop so there was little (if any) wasted fresh water in those systems.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-22-2003 02:47 PM

Quote:
"But every drop does count as water becomes scarce. Eliminating the need for soundtrack redevelopment IS doing something about it.

Over half of the water required to process print film is wasted by the need to wash off the caustic soundtrack developer:"

Sorry, but to me, that argument just doesn't hold water.

By that "logic", it would seem best to convert to DLP to eliminate the labs and ALL their water usage...

>>> Phil

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-22-2003 02:57 PM

quote:
The envirowackos only seem to come out when the sky is falling.

Thank you Steve, for clarifying your position. [Roll Eyes]

Fortunately, many in the movie industry feel differently, and have a sense of environmental responsibility (including many technical people who make the film, make the movies, and make the prints).

Call me "wacko" but somehow, I just don't like the taste of hydroquinone in my water, and sodium hydroxide leaves a bitter aftertaste. [Wink]

Phil Hill wrote:

quote:
By that "logic", it would seem best to convert to DLP to eliminate the labs and ALL their water usage...

Do some research, and you'll find the electronics industry has to "clean up" their act too. Let's see, cadmium, chromium, lead, chip etchants, solvents,...

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Paul G. Thompson
The Weenie Man

Posts: 4718
From: Mount Vernon WA USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-22-2003 02:58 PM

Phil's comment might sound a little sarcastic, but I think he is "right on the button."

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David Stambaugh
Film God

Posts: 4021
From: Eugene, Oregon
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 07-22-2003 03:15 PM

There's plenty of water. The problem is, at any given time, it isn't where it's needed most, or it's not potable. Moving the water to where it's needed, and making it potable, is very non-trivial [read: costly].

I've followed this thread from the beginning. Looks like people have made up their minds and nobody's going to change their position on the issue. For me, if the labs can reduce water consumption by ~50% (and thus also presumably reduce their contaminated wastewater effluent by 50%), without significant or noticeable technical degradation to their product, that is not trivial. It would be irresponsible NOT to do it.

I know, I have no right to express an opinion on such a technically-based issue, but there, I just did anyway. [Big Grin]

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Steve Kraus
Film God

Posts: 4094
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 07-22-2003 03:21 PM

The water issue, like the silver issue, like the print waste issue, strikes me as an after the fact justification. Prints still need to get washed. Even if cyan results in water savings I see no reason to pick on this part of the process as somehow unnecessary just to save some water when the end result is fully acknowledged by all concerned to be inferior to what we have now.

It can surprise no one that people get vocal about not wanting to trade a superior system for an inferior one...and have to pay for the privilege. And pay forever down the road in the form of a near monopoly on the light source.

BTW, I have red LED's as part of my basement reader / reverse scanners so there is no vested interest on my part to stay with silver.

[ 07-22-2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Steve Kraus ]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-22-2003 03:27 PM

Hey! I have an idea that will help the environment and hopefully make everybody here happy --- use 70mm prints. [Cool]

They don't need soundtrack application, and there's no doubt about the superior quality. [Big Grin]

Back to the discussion ______________________________________

Steve Kraus wrote:

quote:
The water issue, like the silver issue, like the print waste issue, strikes me as an after the fact justification.

Eliminating the waste of soundtrack application has been a goal of the motion picture industry for over 50 years. (Gordon mentioned early work by Technicolor to eliminate silver development from the dye transfer process). The development and wide scale use of reverse scan red LED readers has finally ENABLED the industry to consider cyan dye tracks. Reverse scan red LED readers have generally been installed on their own merits, for the many advantages they offer.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-22-2003 03:49 PM

I was going to say convert or drop the issue, I'm tired of hearing about it...but you've swayed me with the obvious benefits of 70mm. I say ALL prints by Jan 2004 need to be 70mm. For the time being we can do with 70dts and I'm sure Dolby would be happy to come along behind them and make their format work in 70 as well.

Taking this at an angle of the studios benefit (let's completely forget for a minute any earth benefits or responsibilities), approximately how much $ would be saved from each print if the industry switched to cyan tracks? Also, approximately how much actual time (minutes/hours/whatever) would be saved from each print if the labs skipped the currently necessary stages. I'd rather see some hard numbers than all of this arguing.

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Phil Hill
I love my cootie bug

Posts: 7595
From: Hollywood, CA USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-22-2003 03:51 PM

I like John's suggestion about 70mm...and I'm sure so would DTS. [Cool]

Oops! Wait a sec….
If 35mm w/silver uses "x" amount of H2O, and cyan uses 1/2 that, then 70mm would use the same since it's twice as wide...no wait, ...more cuz of the 5 perf frame. [Razz]

BUT! Since most things like this are based on hype and $$$ for the privileged rather than quality, IT COULD WORK! [evil]

I like it! [beer]

>>> Phil

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 07-22-2003 04:00 PM

One other thing I've been meaning to post about this.

What brainchild came up with the idea of releasing a feature in cyan? Am I the only person who feels that if the studios really want to switch to cyan that what they should be doing is set a date for all trailers to have a complete conversion for 6 months, THEN make the full switch for features. Once cyan trailers are in the mainstream, people can play them on their white light systems for themselves and see the problem. Again, this goes back to the whole example discussion I posted a few days back. Sometimes people have to hear it to believe it, and releasing a feature out of the clear blue is just foolish in my book.

Of course if cyan tracks are as inferior as some people are pitching, then it would also give theaters 6 months to raise hell over the switch. It's a fair way to handle it. It works both ways. [Wink]

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 07-22-2003 04:17 PM

quote:
What brainchild came up with the idea of releasing a feature in cyan?

Since work began in the mid 1990's, the industry Dye Track Committee has met many times at ShoWest, ShowEast, and the annual ITEA Projection Seminar. NATO and ITEA have publicized the meetings. Other meetings have been held at industry gatherings worldwide. Industry technical experts and ideas are always welcome (Steve Guttag was there at ShoWest). There is a website:

http://www.dyetracks.org

and an e-mail address:

info@dyetracks.org

If you have a better way of implementing the conversion, share it. [Smile]

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